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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Nov 25, 2002.
To President Bush:
----- Original Message -----
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:38 PM
I second this letter and agree wholeheartedly with its content:
Dear Mr. President,
If the blowing up of Bus No. 20 in a west Jerusalem neighborhood during rush hour this morning does not BLOW UP the ROAD MAP to a Palestinian state, what will it take? I am a Christian who has often ridden Bus No. 20 when I have visited Jerusalem. I am vividly picturing the absolute horror in my own mind. Can you not see it?
At least 11 have died, INNOCENT, UNARMED young people and adults. How many arms, legs, heads, guts strewn over the street and hanging from the trees and buildings will it take? How much human blood? Yes, it IS human blood, not the blood of monkeys and pigs, as the Muslim religion teaches its adherents in the Middle East and even in its Islamic schools IN THE UNITED STATES!
How much HORROR are the Israelis expected to absorb?
Michael Freund just wrote an article in the Jerusalem Post enumerating 15,298 terror attacks in Israel since the "new" intifada began over 2 years ago. Now the number is 15,299. How many more?
No more pressure on Israel to facilitate the establishment of a Palestinian state! PLEASE! It is absolutely insane!
From my heart, Judy Stone
If the Palestinians had used non-violent methods to plead their case, they would have had a homeland years ago. How sad for them, and the Israelis, that the Palestinian leaders chose violence instead.
[ November 25, 2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
I think if anyone's going to compare the Palestinians and the Israelis to the current situation in the Holy Land, there's plenty of blame to go around for both of them.
Agreed - any country that elects a war criminal as head of state has issues as far as I am concerned - add to that the continued defiance of UN resolutions, International law, Geneva Convention etc etc.
A pox on both their houses.
Please..Explain what the Israelies have done wrong? Given this current 2 year terror campaign by the Palestinians, I can't see what blame anyone could possibly place on the Israelis given the horror they are enduring. At this point, they'd be justified in going in and physically removing they entire palestinian government and police organization that Yasser runs and exhiling them far far away. If they whined about it...I'd show them pics of blown up busses and people. Don't buy into all this nonsence about Israel "provoking" the Palestinians...
[ November 26, 2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: AdoptedByGod ]
Johnv and InHim,
Maybe from your perpesctive there is blame in this country for 9/11?
Palestinians have been killing innocent people in Israel for years. If they are not allowed to allowed to protect their country then the US needs to back off going after terrorists. Our losses are puny compared to Israel, yet as a country we are outraged and want to destroy the Taliban!
Please explain your justification for the US actions as opposed to your attitude towards Israel.
Israel is in violation of international law and their head of state is a war criminal - do you dispute these facts?
how does the United States compare to that? Because as far as I can see it does not.
The human rights abuses purpetrated by both sides of the conflict are well documented - from the sucide bombers to the actions of Sharon at Sabra and Shatila.
Both sides have blood on their hands.
and the Israelis have been killing innocent Palestinians for years.
The comparisons with the 9/11 attacks simply do not hold up - for one thing the USA is not illegally occupying and settling the people that attacked it.
[ November 26, 2002, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: InHim2002 ]
The international law about illegal occupation was developed after WW2. It however flies in the face of a millenium practice and law: namely, the right of conquest. The Arabs lost the 1948 War and Israel came into existence as a Jewish nation. The Hassemite Kingdom of Jordan lost the '67 War and its territory on the West Bank (before '67 Bethlehem was a Jordanian city). As wars go, Israel won their territory fair and square.
So why all the fuss when Iraq won Kuwait by exactly the same measure?
Ahh, just because you win an initial battle does not mean you've won the war. Kuwait had/has some powerful allies. Israel on the other hand has fought four conventional wars and defeated its opponents in each of them. My only quibble is that many get all concerned about the "illegal" occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. To me Israeli possession of these territories is as legal as the French possession of Alsace and Lorraine and various other territories won by force of arms as the Louis' sought defensable borders. The borders on early 18th century through late 20th cetury European maps were none too stable. Until the late 20th, most of these changes were made by the force of arms.
What, pray tell, makes the Middle East any different? None of the present political enities go back further than 200 years. Most of them; Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia arose from the ashes of the Ottoman Empire of Turkey after WW1. The Ottomans made the fatal error of backing the loosing side in that war. So, only one countries mentioned above had any real independence before WW2. The rest were either under mandate to France or Britain or in the case of Iraq reoccupied during WW2 for Nazi sympathies.
[ November 26, 2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: The Squire ]
Perhaps one should look at US history, especially during the 1800s. you will find that what we did was far worse than Israel. They are defending their homeland against Paletinians who refuse to live in peace with Israel.
The US drove the American Indians from thier land and gave them a "homeland." Do the American Indians teherfore, have the right to send suicide bombers to disrupt our way of life? If these same people were to behave as the Paletinians would you then say they have that right? If not, then why do the Palestinians have that right?
I for one do dispute it.
I am not part of the "Israel Can Do No Wrong Crowd" but the Palestians must get them some leaders who know how to compromise and face the fact that in a War with Israel, they will be destroyed. So far they have been idiots and seem happy to take themselves down the road to destruction. We can argue who is right and who is wrong and get a variety of answers but to the question who is the weaker, there is no doubt - the Palestians. Israel has shown much restraint in that they could have long destroyed these people easily but unlike the other Middle Eastern powers which are basically despots, the Israelis are a Democracy that has shown more tolerance than neighboring Jordan did to the Palestians some 30 years ago and much of this goes to the fact that Democracies have more respect for life. Yes, Israel has committed atrocities but the fact is in any war, atrocities are committed by all sides because war is not a football or baseball game with neat rules but is brutal, ugly and ruthless.
The Palestians need a intellegent leader who can gain trust and respect from Israel for as the weaker party in the conflict they are destined to be destroyed by the current strategy of thinking they can win by force.
[ November 26, 2002, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
Kiffin, once again, you are SO RIGHT!
Restraint...being the Key Word! Read somewhere that Israel has more of an Air Force than the U.S. if you figure # of planes per capita.
In Him and John V I am getting a little tired of this anti Biblical stance you guys seem to promote. I suggest you both lick whatever wounds you have with God's people and follow the Bible which of course tells us who His people are.
I have thought through my answer to your original question a little more carefully - here are my new thoughts
I agree with you it does fly in the face of this.
However, modern Israel was created by the United Nations - not through conquest. The borders expanded through conquest but were it not for International law they would not have existed in the first place.
It seems disengenous to me to argue on the on the one hand that they have the right to ignore international law whilst on the other ignoring the fact that it is only because of international law that they exist.
Further I have several problems with the idea that because a practise is ancient it therefore takes precedence over contempory law - this is a worrying precedent is it not? What about:
- slavery - an ancient practice outlawed recently
- the Nuremburg trials - those tried were tried for crimes that had not even existed before they were arrested
- the drug trade - an ancient practice outlawed recently
Why does your argument not apply to the above?
But according to international law they did not.
It is an interesting argument that you forward though Squire - one I have not seen before,l I would very much like to hear your response.
And vice-versa - the Palestinians see the Israelis as unwilling to live peacefully with them - demolishion of the property to make room for illegal settlements etc etc.
All I am saying is that in every conflict there are two sides - I have never once said that I agree with Palistinians killing innocent Israelis - I simply do not believe that Israelis have the right to kill innocent Palistinians either.
where have I said that they do?
I don't see where you are disputing my claim?
recognising that there are two sides to every conflict is unbiblical? I must have missed those verses, could you post them for me please.
I have no problem with Jewish people and I don't understand why you think I do have. I simply do not believe that it is biblical to give unconditional, unquestioning support to Israel in this conflict. It is only by compromise that any solution will ever be reached.
God's Word clearly states who the Land belongs to! And it's not the Philistines, whom the Palestinians claim they are descended from!