Death by sin - Rom. 5:12

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 26, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Paul attributes death directly to sin. Paul claims that sin is the "wages of death" (Rom. 6:23). Paul claims that the bondage of corruption that reigns over the natural world was not due to any willingness by creation to be subjected to it but it is due to sin entrance into this world and can only be removed by redemption:

    Rom. 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

    Paul is even more specific how sin entered this world. It does not enter this world by the sins of many but "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin." "By one man's disobedience were many made sinners."

    Sin entered this world and death by that particular sin when Adam violated Genesis 2:17:

    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die.

    This is the only Law given directly from God to man that attributes death to sin and therefore death between Adam and Moses cannot be attributed to the violation of any other law:

    13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,


    No such law of conscience can be found between Genesis 2:17 and Exodus 20 that attributes death to the violation of conscience or where even such a law is mentioned between Genesus 2:17 and Exodus 20. Remember, Paul is proving that sin entered the world by one man and death by sin, not by many men or many sins. Hence, this proves that death came into the world not through many sins by many men but "by one man sin entered the world and death by sin, so that death passed upon all" because of one man's disobedence "many were made sinners."

    This is proven by the fact that death is inflicted upon all incapable of willful sin (infants, mentally impaired) proving that sin was not a consequence of their individual acts of sin but that "by one man sin entered into world and death by sin, so that death passed upon all"

    even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. - Rom. 5:14b

    1 Tim. 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    This is what Paul means because he does not go on to accredit death and condemnation to MANY SINS by MANY SINNERS but repetitiously accredits the death and judgement of many TO ONE MAN'S SIN.

    15 But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, has abounded to many.
    16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification.
    17 For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life.
    19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    This is precisely what Paul means because it is by ONE MAN'S OBEDIENCE that righteousness is obtained by many. If the Arminian argument that death comes to individuals only by individual sins rather than by ONE MAN'S SIN then Life would come to individuals due only to individual obedience rather than by ONE MAN'S OBEDEDIENCE.

    Paul is clearly teaching both federal headship and representation by ONE MAN. Adam as the sinless unfallen representative of the human race acted in behalf of all humanity, and in addition the entire human nature existed and consisted in ONE MAN acting in unison willfully violating Genesis 2:17 and so by one man sin entered into the world and death by sin, so that death passed upon all men FOR (Because) all men have sinned (Aorist tense).

    All humans come into this world in the most raw form of total depravity, totally selfish, self-centered and must be disciplined to control their selfish behavior. We are born sinners by nature as the sin nature is passed down equally as all other aspects of human nature are passed down through generation.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Romans 6:23; 5:12 and Genesis 2:17 attribute death as the judicial consequences of sin, the penalty for sin. Romans 8 clearly states that "corruption" due to sin in this natural world is not to be blamed on creation but on Adam's sin as the world did not submit to this corruption "willingly" but was forced:

    Rom. 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
    21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


    This corruption can only be removed in connection with the redemption of sin from the human body at the coming of the Lord:

    22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.
    23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


    All human beings are now under the condemnation of the law or the "curse of the Law" which is death (Gal. 3:10) and only those "in Christ" are removed from this "curse" (Gal. 3:13) and that refers to only those "in the Spirit" or the immaterial aspect of our human nature which already has "eternal life" and "shall never die" (Jn. 11:26).

    Jesus did not come into the world to condemn the world because the world was "condemned already" (Jn. 3:19) as no human being is born into this world as a believer and all who are in unbelief are "under the curse" of the Law and "the wrath of God abideth upon" them (Jn. 3:36) and thus prior to becoming "in the Spirit" by being "born of the Spirit" we "were children of wrath even as others."

    Hence, all men are sinners by nature, by birth and this is manifested when they mature to discern good from evil they are all sinners by choice. So they are already "under the curse" of the Law, already subject to death, already the wrath of God abides upon them and when they are exposed to the light they manifest their sinful nature by refusing to come to the light becuase they hate the light by nature (Jn. 3:19-20). As they resist and reject the light judicial hardening occurs whereby they lose their power of discernment between good and evil or the faculty of conscience becomes seared.
     
  3. Winman

    Winman
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    Nice try, but Romans 5:13-14 says men from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin. Your view teaches that these persons DID sin Adam's sin in his loins.

    No, people until Moses died because they offended the law written on their heart as Paul taught in chapter 2;

    Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

    If your view was correct (it isn't) then ALL MEN would perish because of Adam's sin, not just men from Adam to Moses.

    In fact, before any man could commit any sin whatsoever, they would perish for Adam's sin simply because they were conceived in the womb.

    Romans 5 is simply teaching that both Adam and Jesus set a legal precedent.

    A legal precedent is a judicial decision that is used as a standard for subsequent similar cases.

    When Adam sinned, he was judged or "made" a sinner. The word "sinner" is a legal definition, just like the word "felon".

    After Adam, all men who sinned were judged as sinners, and the same sentence of death passed on them. This what Romans 5 is teaching. All sinners are treated and punished consistently.

    Jesus also set a legal precedent by his obedience. He was obedient to trust his Father to raise him from the dead.

    Likewise, when we trust Jesus to save us, righteousness is imputed to us.

    If your view were correct, then Rom 5:18-19 would teach Universalism;

    Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

    If Adam's death sentence is unconditionally imputed to all men, then Jesus's free gift of life would also be unconditionally imputed to all men. This is universalism, which we know is not true.

    In fact, those who hold to Universalism quote Rom 5:18-19 as their proof text to support this doctrine. And if Adam's sin is imputed unconditionally to all men, then they have an indisputable argument. :thumbsup:

    You cannot impute Adam's death UNCONDITIONALLY to all men, but only impute the free gift CONDITIONALLY. That violates the parallel type of argument Paul is making in Romans 5. Whatever condition is applied to the first half of each verse must be equally applied to the second half of each verse in this passage.
     
    #3 Winman, Dec 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Your denial above demonstrates you do not understand the meaning of "similitude." In your second sentence you say, "these presons DID sin Adam's sin in his loins" while your first sentence says "DID NOT sin after the similitude of Adam's sin." Go learn the meaning of the words "after the similitude" because you second sentence is NOT talking about a "likeness" but actual the actual sin committed by Adam.

    Second, verses 13-14a claims their death must be attributed to violating a law KNOWN to them that makes death the consequence or else sin cannot be imputed to them. Where can you find the law of conscience under violation of death revealed to anyone between Genesis 2:17 and Exodus 20?????? Nowhere!




    No, if my view is correct then all men suffer death and that is precisely the point Paul is defending by these arguments. "death by sin, and so death passed upon all because all men have sinned.....death reigned"


     

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