Death & Demons

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by swaimj, Oct 7, 2003.

  1. swaimj

    swaimj
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    The unsaved man is dead in sin, I think we all agree. Agreeing on the definition of "spiritual death" is another matter. Calvinists say that man is dead. In his natural state, he is unable to hear, understand, or believe the gospel.

    Yet, how do we reconcile this with James 2:19? In that verse, the demons know that there is one God, they understand this fact, and they believe it. They even respond to it in an appropriate way; they tremble. This verse is commonly applied to mean that there is a kind of "false faith" which men can have. They can be orthodox, they can understand the gospel, and can even give verbal assent to it, yet not be saved.

    I find it difficult to reconcile this teaching from James with the doctrine of spiritual death as defined by calvinists. If spiritual death means that a man cannot hear, know, understand, or respond to the gospel, how can we have people who have "false faith" in which they do understand and give verbal assent, yet they are unsaved?
     
  2. Yelsew

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    Good point(s) Swaimj, the Calvinist does not seem to understand that everthing the bible says about man ia relative to God, and none other.
     
  3. John Gilmore

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    Ask the Demons if Jesus is Lord! "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost." 1 Cor. 12:3
     
  4. Me2

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    to exist in the presence of God requires man to be perfect as God is perfect.

    the fall transformed mans body and spirit into a state that is unholy before God. it is unacceptable. also God has cursed man and has put enmity between the characteristics of the two kinds of spirits. holy and unholy. christ and antichrist

    for the next 4000 years, man would remain in a state of "Unholy body and spirit" upon the arrival of Jesus. He is the first acceptable whole man. body, soul and spirit.

    God in his dealings with man chooses who he will communicate to. In the NT, God chooses whom he will impart his spirit into first before communication between Holy Spirit and man can begin.

    Gods has prepared a Spiritual body and Spirit and has to impart these into man. the only thing remaining is the regeneration or renewing of the mind.
    "putting on the mind of Christ"

    If God has chosen to impoart his spirit into someone. it is obsurd to think that the person is not "saved". they simply need to have their mindset changed.

    so that the problem we have here is the non regeneration of the mind. (no external expression of the spirit/body) we have a believer who possesses the spirit but does not comprehend, or has refused to grow under the instruction of the Holy spirit.
    even to the extent of their own imaginations expressing things which they can not prove within a relationship of a living God. yet they do have the ability attach to their "misunderstanding" of who they think God really is.

    there are people outside the church that have not the spirit and are controlled by Satan. there are also brothers and sisters within the church walls that contain Gods new spiritual body and spirit, yet their mind can also be under the influences of Satan.non regenerated

    even to the point that if satan is effecting or influencing a new believer. John states that if they dont accept the teachings of the Holy spirit that "Jesus christ is inside them". or even to the point of hating their brothers and sisters that those people should be avoided..and these believers actually do have the spirit within them..

    their being disobedient and fighting the teachings of the Holy Spirit.

    imagine that.


    they are a work in progress.
    and are under Gods timetable of being transformed.
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Excuse me? But are you not speaking of something that man can do of his own power? What was the purpose of Jesus being manifest in the flesh? The answer is: To remove man's sins from the determination of man's eternal fate.

    To exist in the presence of God is to die from this natural life, then you cannot help but be in the "presence of God", either as an eternal life recipient, or before the judgment throne of God to be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire. Neither of these requires perfection on man's part, but rather faith or the lack of faith respectively.
     
  6. Frogman

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    Are the demons not fallen angels? Or did Satan create these?

    As fallen angels they fell from the presence of God. They have not the need of faith in things unseen as to whether God is real, or whether Christ is the eternal Son of God. Man is born, angels do not reproduce. Man is not a 'spirit' from the eternal Father placed in a body.

    I think you know these things though.

    Yet I don't understand the relationship you are trying to make. Calvinism, though teaching total depravity has never to my knowledge taught that man is on the same level as the demons.

    This only proves as has already been shown that there is more involved than simple belief. This means to yield to Christ as Lord. Man will do this only by the power of the Spirit of God regenerating him. The demons or Satan will not yield to this Lordship, this does not mean they do not know (recognize) Christ.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  7. Me2

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    Yelsew,

    Man exists before God "within his completed image of his will". mercy allows the incomplete image to become complete.

    namely God sees man "covered by the blood of his Lamb".
    in the end of his known will, we see all of creation covered by the blood of his son and his son under subjection of the father.

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
    1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


    within the plans of God as stated within the pages of the Bible, we know that in this age the sons of God are being manifested.
    to become the reconcilers of Gods creation to himself through the finished work of Jesus Christ.

    The plans are unfolding before mans eyes not Gods.
    as far as were concerned. the moment we are imparted with the spirit of Jesus. we are eternally "saved".

    forever joined to God via the existence of His righteous spirit attached to your soul.

    next is putting on "the mind of Christ".

    Me2
     
  8. swaimj

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    But in calvinism, simple belief is not possible is it? How often on this board have calvinists quoted from I Cor to defend their concept of death: "the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural man, neither can he know them". Yet in James the demons are clearly not regenerated, but understand truth, believe it, and respond to it. It is not hard to find calvinists in writing who use these verses in defense of Lordship salvation to say that man can possess a faith that is orthodox, but not redemptive. How can a man who is incapable of understanding the gospel (I Cor) have a false faith (or simple faith as you call it) in which he does understand it?
     
  9. Kiffin

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    Believing there is a God is not faith. For one thing Demons do not have faith. They have a intellectual assent to a belief in God. Faith is more than a simple intellectual assent to truth or a belief in God. Faith is embracing Jesus Christ alone for Salvation and can come only by the work of the Holy Spirit in one's life (Eph. 2:8-9. Titus 3:5).
     
  10. swaimj

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    Kiffin, OK, I'll change the question and use your term. How can a man intellectually assent to the gospel if, as Paul says, he cannot understand it and it is foolishness to him? The difficulty remains. A semantic game of changing the terms does not settle the difficulty.
     
  11. Kiffin

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    No, my friend there is no problem. It's not a matter of intellectually assenting and agreeing there is some good in it. It is the matter of embracing the truth of the Gospel which is faith in what the Gospel teaches. A person who does not embrace the truth of the Gospel is regarding it as foolishness and is in open rebellion against the Gospel. There is no semantic game. Faith is embracing the Truth (Repentance and Faith in Christ Jesus as Lord) and is a supernatural conversion. Believing there is a God or Jesus does not imply faith. Calvinists don't deny man can believe in a God or Jesus with an intellect but having faith and embracing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is very differant.

    To give you an example: I walk in a room I see a chair. I believe there is a chair in the room but when I sit in that chair I have faith that chair can hold me up. The unregenerate may believe there is a God or Jesus or a Trinity but they will not embrace Jesus without the work of the Holy Spirit (Even Arminians agree with Calvinists to a point on that). It is foolishness to them until their eyes are open by the Holy Spirit through conviction and regeneration.
     
  12. Frogman

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    But in calvinism, simple belief is not possible is it? How often on this board have calvinists quoted from I Cor to defend their concept of death: "the things of the spirit are foolishness to the natural man, neither can he know them". Yet in James the demons are clearly not regenerated, but understand truth, believe it, and respond to it. It is not hard to find calvinists in writing who use these verses in defense of Lordship salvation to say that man can possess a faith that is orthodox, but not redemptive. How can a man who is incapable of understanding the gospel (I Cor) have a false faith (or simple faith as you call it) in which he does understand it? </font>[/QUOTE]I answered that in the other post. Men are not created part of the spiritual world. The demons, and satan were.

    Bro. Dallas
     

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