Death occured before the fall?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. webdog

    webdog
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    In response to a now closed (quickly) thread, the following question was asked...
    I would say that, yes, death did occur prior to the fall. God gave all plant life to consume as food for both man and animals. Either this plant life had to die, or the "end result" of eating plantilfe would not be too pleasant if the plants continued to live and grow after consumption :D
     
  2. DHK

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    Death of plants is not death. There is no soul in plants. Before the fall man was vegetarian. There was no death of any animal of any kind.
     
  3. canadyjd

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    Point well taken. That would be quite a belly-ache! I stand corrected.

    But, the question is....did alcohol exist (naturally or by Adam/Eve making it for consumption) prior to the fall?

    Was the first reference to alcohol found with Noah, after the flood?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  4. webdog

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    Wow. If you don't consider a plant "dead" (pertaining to physicality...absense of life) what do you conisder it? If they cannot die, how can they "live"? Death occurs on the cellular level, too. To claim a cell needs a soul in order for death to occur is ridiculous.
     
  5. webdog

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    yes, but an argument from silence is not a good one...wouldn't you say? A grape naturally has yeast on it. I don't believe there are "pre-fall" grapes and post fall grapes...just grapes.
     
  6. Amy.G

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    My apologies to anyone I may have offended in the other (now closed) thread.

    My question is this, why is it said that alcohol, or the reaction of yeast consuming sugar is decay? I have never heard this.
     
  7. webdog

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    QUIT DERALING MY THREAD! :laugh:

    I don't want this one closed too!
     
  8. canadyjd

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    Upon further review, I may have to reconsider my prior concession.

    Gen. 2:16 "The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely,"

    Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the trees of the garden. Therefore, the tree wasn't killed in the process of their eating the fruit. Only the fruit was consumed.

    Therefore, it is an argument from silence to assume plants were killed in the consumption of food for Adam and Eve, especially since God commanded them to only eat the fruit of the trees. :thumbs:

    BTW, you acknowledge a "pre-fall" humanity and a "post-fall" humanity, don't you? You acknowledge a "pre-fall" creation (not under a curse) and a "post-fall" creation (under a curse) don't you?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  9. DHK

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    Solomon knew this a thousand years before Christ was born.

    Proverbs 23:31-32 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
    32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

    When the yeast or fermentation begins to take place it "changes the color and 'moves itself aright'" What Solomon could see was the obvious fermentation process taking place--a process of decay. Wine is simply a decaying process of the freshly picked grapes.
     
  10. webdog

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    ...so then a moderator does just that :BangHead: :laugh:
     
  11. webdog

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    Absolutely. I just don't believe yeast (and fermentation as a result) was created 'post-fall'.
     
  12. canadyjd

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    What about God commanding Adam and Eve to only eat the fruit of the trees. Doesn't that show that the death of plants was not commanded for the consumption of food until after the fall?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  13. Amy.G

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    So, when you put yeast in dough, it causes it to ferment? Is there alcohol in bread?
     
  14. canadyjd

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    But we only have scriptural evidence of alcohol after the fall (with Noah). Isn't it an argument from silence to assume there was alcohol prior to the fall?

    peace to you:praying:
     
  15. webdog

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    They weren't commanded to only eat fruit...but all vegetation from Genesis 1...

    29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

    Death did occur prior to the fall.
     
  16. webdog

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    I believe the argumet from silence occurs when it is assumed there was no alcohol prior to Noah since Scritpture doesn't mention it. that's truly an argument from silence, not the other way around.
     
  17. canadyjd

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    My understanding is that yeast is a bacteria that comsumes sugars and multiplies (the growth of the bacteria causes the dough to "rise").

    How that process is related to the production of alcohol, I'll have to let someone else address. In my prior, unsaved, life, I was more of an alcohol filter, than an alcohol producer.

    peace to you:praying:
     
  18. canadyjd

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    Upon further review, (edited because Rubato 1 has shown that even if I think I have made a mistake, I may still be right:laugh: )

    peace to you:praying:
     
    #18 canadyjd, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  19. Rubato 1

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    This does not say all vagetation! And this does not requite death. The point was well-stated by canadyjd.

    Eating this does not require death; maybe that is why God said to eat it...?...
     
  20. canadyjd

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    Fact: Alcohol is mentioned only after the fall.

    Conclusion:

    I don't want to assume alcohol existed prior to the fall, since scripture doen't mention it prior to the fall, and you say I am arguing from silence?

    You want to assume alcohol existed prior to the fall (even though scripture doesn't mention it) you believe you are not arguing from silence?

    peace to you:praying:
     

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