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Death occured before the fall?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by webdog, Apr 30, 2008.

  1. Rubato 1

    Rubato 1 New Member

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    Actually, only drunkenness is mentioned, not alcahol at all; and no other sins are mentioned before the fall either.
     
  2. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Was the Garden of Eden a specific place on the earth, or was the entire earth included in the Garden of Eden?
     
  3. standingfirminChrist

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    The Garden was in a specific place on earth. There were four rivers that ran out of the garden.
     
  4. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Since there were gates that angels with flaming swords stood at in order to guard against their return, I'd say the garden was a specific place on earth. Where would A & E have left to if the entire earth was in the garden...another planet? :D
     
  5. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    A garden is a special place, an enclosure, a cultivated area, a protected area.

    ...Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made.
    Genesis 3:23 NLT

    ...All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.
    It will grow thorns and thistles for you,
    though you will eat of its grains.
    By the sweat of your brow
    will you have food to eat
    until you return to the ground
    from which you were made.
    For you were made from dust,
    and to dust you will return.”

    Genesis 3:17-19 NLT

    Those thorns and thistles were there, just not in the garden!
    Animal life experenced death, just not in the garden.

    Rob
     
    #25 Deacon, Apr 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2008
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Leaven is yeast. Fermentation is a type of leavening.
    Almost always leaven is a picture of sin, corruption or false doctrine.
    Jesus said: "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees."
    --That is: Beware of their false doctrine.

    The Passover (as well as some other feasts) were to be kept only with unleavened bread.
    --The reason: Leaven was a type of sin. There was to be no sin or corruption to be found in the houses of the Israelites as the death angel passed over that night. The blood would cover them. They would also leave Egypt taking only unleavened bread with them, leaving all the corruption and sin behind.

    During the Communion service it is celebrated with two elements: bread and wine.
    The bread is unleavened. It represents the sinless body of our Lord Jesus Christ. He was without sin. Thus the bread is unleavened.
    The "wine" is unfermented or grape juice. It has not gone through the fermentation process. It is pure, without leaven, or yeast. It represents the purity of the blood of Jesus Christ.

    Keep in mind that in the first century, as the Lord's Supper was instituted they did not have the technology that we have today, and were not thinking on the molecular level as some here do. These elements were purely symbolic in nature. They were symbolic to the eyes, as to what the eye could see, and the mind could understand. They were not scrutinized by a microscope to see if there was any molecule of yeast lying on the skin. (You know some people here strain at gnats).
    Thus it was grape juice that had to be used.

    Yeast, leaven, and the leavening process or fermentation all symbolized sin and corruption, as well as false doctrine.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If it were unfermented...it would not be pure, but have impurities in it (even if it were boiled down and mixed with water, the water would have impurities in it). Freshly squeezed grape juice, what you call "pure" is anything but. It would be chock full of yeast (leaven). You don't know what you are talking about.

    The only way prior to the 1800's for it not to contain impurities would be fermentation.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    According to historians Pliny, Plutarch, Cato and others who lived during the days of the Apostles, wines were made and preserved in their "pure and unfermented" form and were preferred rather than fermented wines.
     
  9. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    According to just these two verses in Romans, sin brought death. Therefore, to say that death occurred before the Fall, is false.

    God told Adam that he could eat freely from every tree in the Garden...but he was NOT to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and eviL. Why? Here's the answer:

    Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
     
  10. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...yet in an airtight container in my refrigerator my cider ferments. Go figure :rolleyes:

    They must have been drinking too much of that "pure" stuff to come up with this hooey.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    That is speaking of spiritual death and man...not physical death at the cellular level, which occured prior to the fall.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes, in fact I do know what I am talking about. You are trying to force 20th century technology into the first century. It doesn't work that way.
    Furthermore, what yeast would the common person in the first century see or know about? None! They know that it would be contaminated with yeast after it ferments not before. Your logic is way off.
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I'm not forcing anything. You are trying to pretend freshly squeezed juice in the first century would be free from the yeast on the grapes, which is false. Grapes in the first century are the same as grapes today.
    Somebody's logic is off, allright...and it's not mine :)
    That white powdery stuff on ALL grapes is yeast. I'm sure they knew exactly what it was if they knew what it did, and what leaving it on the lees entailed as well as refining it and removing the dregs.
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    And no doubt, like most people, they washed the grapes before they squeezed them into juice. The Pharisees were very particular about their washings.
     
  15. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

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    Scripture please? The physical death process started at that point...yes it was spiritual death, but also physical death too. Adam did die physically...as we all do. If Adam had not eaten of that fruit of that tree he would have lived forever....that is why God drove Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden.

    Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    Genesis 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    Genesis 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
     
  16. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Supply a source where they washed their grapes before making wine.

    That stil does nothing to eliminate airborne yeast which also ferments.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    ...so the plants that were eaten in the garden never died? :confused:

    Did they continue to grow and live in the stomach after consumption?

    Physical death is the absense of life. Death occurs without oxygen, food and water. None of this is provided in the stomach, meaning the plant ceases to live...that is death.
     
  18. standingfirminChrist

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    You must have done something wrong. Linda and I have had unfermented wine for 10 months now with no alcoholic content. Each time we put it in freezer, it freezes solid.

    Alcohol will not freeze in a conventional freezer.

    Also, we have great science labs right around the corner from us that have the capability of testing the wine we made.

    We have proven that non fermented wines can be made by following the directions by historians of the first century AD ourselves. Their writings and claims are not "hooey," but proven to be fact.
     
  19. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I didn't do anything...I'm talking about leaving welches or cider in a refrigerator and not touching it. It will ferement.
    Depends on alcohol content and water content. Beer does (from first hand experience of an exploding bottle)
    Making jam and mixing it with water is not wine.
    Claiming fruit can last for 100 years under ground in air tight containers (particularly that far back) and be "as fresh as the day it was plucked" is hooey. Bodies in Egypt under similar conditions (air tight coffins) decayed. Fruit would too, as there is no way to remove all oxygen and yeast and keep the fruit from drying out.
     
  20. standingfirminChrist

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    Whether you believe it or not does not change the fact that it happened.

    And it was not underground, but in Herod's fortress in Masada that fresh fruits, vegetables, and wines were discovered. Josephus would have no cause to lie about such a find.
     
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