Death occured before the fall?

You know what theysay about great minds? :thumbs:

 

You know, I could just see Adam sitting by the fire and peeling a potato and those peelings falling on that lush garden soil and that there potato eye just a sprouting right on up. Same potato no death. Then he decides to have a well rounded veggie meal and proceeds to pull up a carrot. Starting at the bottom and eating to the base of the greenery. Tossing it over his shoulder it lands on that same lush garden floor. Well what do you know same carrot. Same for the beet, turnip, rutabaga and any bulbous plant or herb. :godisgood:

 

Not a theory, botanical fact. :godisgood: Again.

 

Wow, the silence is deafening. :godisgood:

 

Supply the microscopes that the first century Christians used to examine the particles of yeast on the grapes, that you speak of. Supply the hi-tech filters to filter out the airborne molecules of yeast which the first century Christians could neither taste, feel, nor see. But according to you they must have had this technology. I want to know where you get this ridiculous logic and information.

You don't understand do you? Do you understand what a symbol is? A symbol doesn't involve atoms and molecules. You are being far too technical.

Leaven represents sin, corruption, and false doctrine. Thus unleavened bread was used at the Passover. There was to be nothing that represented the sin and corruption of Egypt. But according to your "corrupted" theology, if one molecule of airborne yeast had fallen on the "unleavened" bread, then that that entire household would have been killed by the death angel that passed by that night, for the bread wasn't completely unleavened. It may have had a molecule or two of airborne yeast on it. Your theology is ridiculous. I hope you can see that.
The unleavened bread is symbolic. The Israelites were not looking through microscopes, nor filtering their air.

So it is with the unfermented wine or grape juice that is used in the Lord's Supper. It is a symbol. It is a symbol of the uncorrupted blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Had it gone through the corrupted process of fermentation, it would have said to the first century Christians that the blood of Christ was not pure but full of sin and corruption. But since it was symbolized by grape juice it symbolize purity. It had not undergone a leavening or fermenting process of decay and corruption.

The Israelites were not looking through their microscopes to find molecules of yeast, or filtering their air with hi-tech filters. You strain at a gnat to try and destroy a picture, a symbol which the Lord set forth. Is this simple unbelief, pride or what? Why can't you believe in a simple illustration or symbol that is put forth by our Lord? It is not complicated. It does not involve hi-tech equipment and microscopes. It is simple in its teaching. Fermentation is a process of decay and corruption, and all the Israelites knew that. Beware of the Leaven of the Pharisees.

 

:godisgood::thumbs:

 

Deleted by me, already another thread on it. See Web, I stopped myself from derailing your thread - (barely) :laugh:

 

Hey Mel,

Did ya happen to note the time and who was logged into the BB at the time you posted this? This is a message board and its not like IM. All of us sleep some time.

Now regarding the picture you painted about Adam eating different tubers etc. and part of them falling onto the ground and a new plant growing...

Well I can paint the same picture only Adam or Eve pulls the potato out of the ground, cuts off the green stems and leaves, throws them into a fire (don't want to litter up the garden you know), then they bake the potato with the skin (peeling) on, and eat it skin and all. No new plant... That's the problem with analogies and anecdotes, they all break down at some point.

 

That was just outstanding. :thumbsup:

 

This was mentioned and ignored earlier, Brother Mel:

This does not requite death. The point was well-stated by canadyjd.

According to simple definitions, the food they were commanded to eat in the Garden did not require any death to take place!
As for Carrots, Beets, and Potatoes, those are not fruits 'with seed in it,' so it is reasonable to believe that they did not eat it.

R1

Isn't that great? The Bible and a dictionary sure goe a long way...

 

Seed-bearing plants are plants that have fruit. From the verse as a whole, it is logical to understand that God intended for the fruit to be eaten, not necessarily the whole plant.

Every commentary will state that the last three verses of chapter 1 (along with chapter 2) are poetic. So God was saying one thing in a slightly different way.

BTW, I didn't mean for the above post to sound smart-alec. I meant that it is a great thought that even food was supplied without death, etc. not that I use the dictionary while others do not...

BTW 2, I like your link :laugh:.

 

Historians of the first century AD record the process of boiling grape juice wine in its unfermented state to kill the fermenting agents. Grape juice does not come to a boil until it reaches a temperature of 212°F. Yeast is killed off at 176°F, so the fermenting agents are killed well before the juice comes to a boil.

The boiling of foods is recorded in the Word of God as early as circa 1450 BC when Moses wrote of boiling the flesh and eating in the door of the congregation.

History records that they had the ability, and the know-how to cook and preserve grape juice in its unfermented state.

 

Next time the silence is deafening try looking at the time. :thumbsup:

 

The Israelites were not Chemists. They were not concerned with "white powdery stuff." They were not concerned with that which they could barely see.
The Israelites in Egypt in during the exodus were not concerned if a few grains of leaven fell on their unleavened bread. It would not spoil the unleavend bread and suddenly make it leavened. They were not concerned with the Chemistry, the molecules, the molecular make-up, the little stuff.

What do you get when you squeeze grapes--grape juice--unadulterated (pure) grape juice. That is what the Israelites considered the grape juice to be. It was without yeast, without corruption. Contrary to your thinking, to their thinking it was. It had not gone through the process of corruption (fermentatin). It had not gone through a process where it would symbolize corruption.

Why do you think Solomon would say:
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
--Fermentation was a process that could be seen. He was not even to look at it, much less drink it. They weren't concerned about the molecules they could not see. They were concerned about what actually corrupted it--the fermentation process. It was a symbol of corruption.

I gave you the truth. They didn't have the microscopes and hi-tech filters that you are reading into the Scriptures. You speak of "airborne yeast." What kind of nonsense is that? How would the Israelites know anything about airborne yeast?? Who gave them that technology?

Christ's blood is indeed pure, and that is why it is represented by the grape juice that is freshly squeezed from grapes. It was symbolic. But you assume they had microscopes and filters to weed out microscopic airborne particles of yeast. How ridiculous!

I am not the one in denial. You deny what a symbol is. You want to read into Scriptures those things that are not there.

, that the Israelites would have to have had microscopes and 20th century technology in order to hold to such theology, is not ad hominen. You have only resorted to man's reasoning, not the Bible. Use the Bible.

 

Yes sir now that is what I call wisdom. Using the Bible and not the reasoning of man is always the best call. :thumbsup:

 

Let's see, hmmm The watch on my wrist says 2:05 pm EDT. The clock on the mantel says 2:08pm. The computer clock says 2:10pm. And still no one has challenged the botanical evidence that nothing died before the fall. And the silence remains. :tongue3:

 

:applause:

 

And again the fire was just an analogy as it implied a comfortable setting. However it is doubtful that Adam had need of a fire as it would have meant a downed tree for fuel. He was in no discomfort so no need of fire and thus the greens of the potato gets tossed and that there potato vine just loves that lush fertile garden soil and soon sends out feeler roots to again provide fresh tubular Irish food for Adams enjoyment.:tongue3: And therefore No litter as the Garden is self sufficient.