Deathblow to Arminian "Foreknowledge"

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Jan 24, 2003.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    I was studying the Greek New Testament, and I just came across something most interesting.

    "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1 Peter 1:2)

    The word "foreordained" in this text is the Greek work "proginosko."

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

    The word "foreknow" in this text is also the Greek word "proginosko."

    In other words, the elect were "foreknown" or "foreordained" in the same sense Christ was. In what way was Christ "foreknown?" Those who believe that "foreknow" in Romans 8:29 implies that God looked down through the ages and elected those He knew would receive the gospel must also affirm the same thing about Christ. This, I know, none will do.

    [ January 24, 2003, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  2. npetreley

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    May I predict some of the responses?

    1. The verses are unreliable because they aren't in red. (Jesus didn't say them directly.)

    2. God would never command anything to be foreordained without giving it the free will to choose whether or not to occur.

    3. John 3:16

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.
     
  3. Primitive Baptist

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  4. tyndale1946

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    Shame... shame... shame... clarify world!... Is that the whole Adamic world ;) ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  5. Yelsew

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    Peter is addressing them as the beneficiaries of a preplanned redemption that is available to all.

    The Same preplanned redemption is available to all today.
     
  6. ScottEmerson

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    Wow. Somehow you've provided the deathblow to Arminianism all by yourself.

    This verse has been answered several times, here and in the writings of Arminius. You may not like the answers, but we don't care for some of ya'll's answers either.

    Can we reduce the "stumper" and "deathblow" rhetoric?
     
  7. KenH

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    The deathblow to Arminianism and all false teachings of any stripe, regardless of label, comes after this age. We will never settle our arguments in this age. [​IMG]
     
  8. Primitive Baptist

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    Yelsew, I am not referring to salvation. I am referring to the actual "foreknowledge" or "foreordination" of Jesus Christ Himself. And to the rest of you, if you are so smart, bring it on! :rolleyes:

    I have seen the foreknowledge issue examined, but I have not seen the 1 Peter 1:20 and how it relates to Romans 8:29 on this board. You may not like my answer, but come on! God looked through the ages and elected those whom He "foresaw" would "accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior." Give me a break. There is no biblical warrant to believe such nonsense. However, there is biblical warrant to believe in Unconditional Election as I have shown using 1 Peter 1:20 and Romans 8:29. Sometimes it just comes down to whether or not we desire the truth or false doctrine. So, answer the question if it has been addressed before. If it has, I am sorry to bring it up again. Jesus was "foreknown" according to 1 Peter 1:20. In what way?
     
  9. Yelsew

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    You falsely presume that I am Arminian. Many of the posters here have called me Gnostic, Calvinist, Arminian, stupid, and a myriad of other names out of their ignorant arrogance. That is one reason why I refuse to affiliate with a denomination or a congregation. I see nothing different between these people and the Sadduccees and Pharasees.
     
  10. Primitive Baptist

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    And this is one reason why you don't know what you are arguing against. One need only to read one of our posts, and it is clearly evident that you know nothing of Calvinism, what you are supposedly fighting against.
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

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    And actually ScottEmerson was referring to me when he posted that statement because for some reason he thinks "foreknow" means simple knowledge of future events.
     
  12. npetreley

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    That all depends on what the meaning of "is" is. [​IMG]
     
  13. Primitive Baptist

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    is - you do not affiliate yourself with a local congregation nor do you, as is evident, study the theological issues.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    My take on this.
    The question I have concerns “those he predestined”. In this passage, there is only one that he foreknew, and that is the one we call the Son of God. So who are those he called? Whosoever will are the ones he Justified, and those he will Glorify. With God for us who do we have to fear?
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    What?? The text doesn't say that at all. "Whom" is plural. It doesn't refer to Christ. It refers to the ones that God foreknows.

    The ones whom he foreknew, according to the passage.

    Where is this in the text?? Did I miss it somewhere?
     
  16. Skandelon

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    Wow. You do some funky moe joe on that text didn't you? You just totally changed the text around to fit your belief! Shame on you! The text says, "For those he foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son." The greek is plural (those whom), Jesus is just one man, that's singular.

    Do you always just add and subtract from the scripture whenever you want? Or just when it contradicts your beliefs? You better hope Rev. 22:18-19 is not literal.
     
  17. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    I have 2 things to say about the original post:

    (1) The poster misquoted 1 Peter 1:20 as 1 Peter 1:2

    (2) Considering that proginosko comes from the words pro (before) and ginosko (know), foreordained is a false and biased translation – it should always be translated foreknew, as it is in the New American Standard.

    I think it would be good to look at ALL the uses of this word proginosko in the New Testament text before making a rash judgement concerning who has recieved a deathblow:

    (1) Acts 26:5 “since they have known about me for a long time, if they are willing to testify, that I lived as a Pharisee according to the strictest sect of our religion.”

    (2) Rom 8:29 "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;"

    (3) Rom 11:2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

    (4) 1 Pet 1:20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

    (5) 2 Pet 3:17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

    NOW THEN: 1 Peter 1:18-20 in context says "knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things… but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ for He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

    What then did He foreknow? Surely, this passage works even better for the Arminian than for the Calvinist! Could not the Arminian say that God foreknew that Jesus would be faithful to His command and faithful even to the death of the cross? faithful in atoning sin? faithful in the sacrifice of Himself? and likewise that God foreknew whether each of us would believe and be faithful to Christ or not? Surely, there has been no deathblow!

    Also, Rom 8:29 does not say that election is unconditional, but conditional - conditional upon foreknowledge. And does not the previous verse explain foreknowledge? "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God," (verse 28) Could it not be said that God foresaw who would love Him, and predestined them?

    [ January 25, 2003, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]
     
  18. ScottEmerson

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    Thanks SS - that saves me from having to type out stuff about the word foreknowing for PB.
     
  19. Yelsew

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    According to you guys, there must have been a war between good and evil before creation. God must have had friends and enemies before the foundation of the world. The elect being his friends and all others being his enemies.

    If God did not foreknow all mankind then the scriptures that say he knows even the number of hairs on our heads are nothing but drivel. Unless of course you want to say that the scriptures are only for the elect. What proof do you offer?

    God either foreknew all mankind or God is subject to surprises, meaning this creation thing is God flying by the seat of his pants, going where no God has gone before! Experimentation if you will. That leaves virtually everything to chance. Do you believe that?

    Imagine, OMNISCIENT God not knowing the greater percentage of the men that He created. That is afterall what you are saying!
     
  20. Bible-belted

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    While it is certainly a tautology to say that God foreknows something (Yelsew, no one denies this so you can cut out the posturing), the question, particularly in Romans 8 29 is how to understand forknoelwedge.

    Arminians wish to take the verse to say that the human response of faith is the object of God's forknowledge and that this is the grounds for predestination.

    This however is unlikely if one examines the text. For one thingin only two of the six instances of the term and its cognates can be said to have the arminian meaning (Acts 26:5 and 2Peter 3:17). The rest have the meaning of "to enter into relationship with before, or to choose or determine beofrehand." One of thses is Romans 11:2, which is helpful in determining the meaning here as it tells us how Paul uses that term in Romans.

    Another is the fact that the verse does not say that God foreknows somethng about us (as in thatwe would respond in faith) but that he foreknows US. Thsi meaning is better reflected in the OT as it is translated in the LXX. That is, the calvanist understanding has a basis in the OT that the arminian understanding lacks.

    Finally, this is a knowing of some individuals only. Only those who are foreknown, and hence predestind, called, justified, and glorified, are in view. If all these things are done beforehand, the question must be answered: before what? While the arminian would have su say it relates to the time when we love God, but Eph. 14 and 1Peter 1:20 (no, not 1:2, though that is quite relevant Sola) would indicate that it is before the foundation of the world.

    The fact is that in context the emphasis is on God's intiative, God's sovereignty in conforming people to the image of the Son, not choice, not conditional thinking.
     

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