Debate for "Beliefs on Baptism."

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darron Steele, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the Christian fellowship area of the board, I posted a poll on beliefs about baptism. It was to correct a mischaracterization common in `baptismal regeneration' denominations that is made about other Christians.
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=31991

    Despite the express purpose of the thread, some have decided that they want to argue, and my last post trying to keep this from happening is here:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=904485&postcount=17
    Hence, I am creating this thread for people who are bound and determined they want to argue, in hopes they will do it here instead of over there.
     
  2. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    0
    Original Post There.
    The four options were
    1) "Baptism is NOT linked to salvation's cause, but still commanded."
    2) "Baptism is a specific fruit of any faith that saves us beforehand."
    3) "We are NOT saved until completed baptism."
    4) "Baptism is entirely optional."


    Number 1 is common Evangelical teaching. The belief is that even if a person refuses to be baptized when s/he could be, s/he could still be saved; s/he just committed a normal sin. Such people may or may not be baptized.
    Number 2 is a view not held by many, although some do suspect it both in Baptist circles and in the Restoration denominations. This is the belief that a person who truly believes the Gospel and that Jesus Christ is Lord is a person who would be baptized if ignorance or lack of opportunity did not prevent it. Barring extenuating circumstances, such people are always baptized. However, they were saved before they even entered the water.
    Number 3 is the common view of the Churches of Christ. This is the belief that until one arises from the water, s/he is unsaved -- period.
    Number 4 is a view not held by many. This is the belief that one is not even sinning when s/he evades baptism.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    I vote for the second option - and agree that Baptism is not what saves -- but it is "the obedience of the gospel" as Paul calls it - the "fruit of salvation" as Christ calls it in Matt 7.

    And those who reject obedience right at the start - as John says in 1John 2 have lied about who they claim to truly know.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Darron I thnk before one can can look at baptism and decide what impact it has on salvation if any at all there needs to be an understanding of what Biblical salvation is.

    With that being said I do not think the Bible teaches that baptism has any impact at all on a person's eternal (spiritual) salvation. However it does impact ones salvation for the kingdom or as the Bible describes it the salvation of the soul.
     
  5. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    3,395
    Likes Received:
    0
    There's another view not listed.

    Baptism is a covenental act. This view is held by Reformed tradition.
     
  6. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,056
    Likes Received:
    36
    Not "by Reformed tradition", but a Reformed understanding of the Scriptures (covenant theology). TP -- be careful, if you use the word "tradition" everyone thinks you are a Romanist.

    This belief is held by all reformed denominations, including Presbyterians, Lutherans, Dutch Reform, Reform Christians. I'm not sure about Episcopalians and Anglicans on this though.
     
  7. tragic_pizza

    tragic_pizza
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2001
    Messages:
    3,395
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks, FoS; I was grasping for the right phrase and couldn't get there.

    I think that Episcopalians and Aglicans view baptism in the same light as the Roman Catholic Church.
     
  8. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,056
    Likes Received:
    36
    I checked the US Episcopal website and their view is a lot more reformed than I thought. See http://www.episcopalchurch.org/visitors_11674_ENG_HTM.htm for more information.
     
  9. Jim1999

    Jim1999
    Expand Collapse
    <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2002
    Messages:
    15,460
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Church of England (Anglicans) have differing views on the meaning of baptism. Traditionally, they believed that infant baptism washed away original sin, and hence the reason for immediate baptism, within days of being born. Others follow the Reformed concept of covenant theology, where it aligns with circumcision, a covenant promise to bring up the child in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, leading to Confirmation, when the novitiate is brought to a saving realization of the Christ.

    Whilst the Church of England was born out of the RC Church, it was definitely a separate assemblage of evangelical and fundamental beliefs. I was raised in such a church and came to a realization of the Christ and salvation within the Church of England. I became a Baptist by conviction at a later date.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  10. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    0
    J. Jump, we are either saved or we are not from what I see in Scripture. From what I read in Scripture, when we die, we all go to one of two destinations for eternity: His kingdom or somewhere much less pleasant. Those of us who are saved have our physical bodies replaced with incorruptible ones, but I see no evidence that we cease to be the same people otherwise.
     
  11. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    0
    Chemnitz posted this in the other thread after I started this one. I think it belongs over here.
    The question was "Which best describes your belief on baptism as the Bible teaches?" Rather than abstain from participating as was his option, he described something that looks closest to option 3.
     
  12. Chemnitz

    Chemnitz
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2001
    Messages:
    2,485
    Likes Received:
    0
    There were no best options. They were all wrong and what I said is not even close to option three. You claim to have started that poll to correct mischaracterizing the beliefs of the baptists and then you mischaracterize the Biblical position.
     
  13. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    None apply
    Point 5:
    Baptism by the Holy Spirit occurs at the time of conversion. Water has absolutely nothing to do with it today. The Lords words Acts 1:5

    But for the next year, the apostles continue to baptize and greatly expand the Church, and Christ stands ready to come back to rule and reign. But after that year is up, at the conclusion of the stoning of Stephen, Acts7: 55 the Lord sits down at the Father's right hand, because Israel has ultimately rejected their Messiah. At this point the new "Age of Grace" previously unknown except by the Father, is begun. And these old sign gifts begin to fade away completely. See Acts 11:14. These folks are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and had not been baptized. Though Peter immediately baptizes them, according to his tradition.

    Paul tells us, he is glad he baptized only a few.

    The whole Baptist religious movement is based upon Israelis promised Kingdom gospel, which has been set-aside for these last 2,000 years, and will be taken up again in the millennial Reign of Christ. We, the members of the Body of Christ, will have been raptured by this time.
     
  14. J. Jump

    J. Jump
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    Messages:
    4,108
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hill Climber can you expound on what you mean by this quote?
     
  15. Darron Steele

    Darron Steele
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,327
    Likes Received:
    0
    Looks like your position is that in the period of Acts 11:14, option #1 was the case.

    Your position for the present time is closest to option 4.
     
    #15 Darron Steele, Dec 1, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2006
  16. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,056
    Likes Received:
    36
    Wouldn't the Lutheran position mirror the other reformed denomations?
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Chemnitz:
    "it is described in the Letter to the Romans in Baptism we are joined to Christ in his death and resurrection by means of Baptism."

    GE:
    It is described there, the 'baptism' namely, of Christ through death and resurrection, and how we (through faith), "with Him" through and in, HIS, death and resurrection, are 'co-buried', 'co-raised', and co-baptised. It's ALL, Christ's, and we in Him and through Him. There is no word there (Ro6) of water-baptism or of 'our', baptism. Much the same is said in Colossians 2.
     
  18. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    GE:
    I 'hold' the 'Reformed' view (or 'tradition') of salvation; yet I am a-baptismal (like in a-millennialist). In other words, I don't believe in water-baptism. I believe water-baptism was a sign of Apostleship and Apostolic Authority, meant for those 'twelve' only
     
  19. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    Option 1 doesn't apply, as it is not commanded today. It is a gift given to each believer at conversion.
    Option 4 doesn't apply as there is no option about it. It's automatic. I believe my option 5 is correct.
     
  20. hillclimber1

    hillclimber1
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,447
    Likes Received:
    0
    Simply that the term, "Baptist" is not a term that is applicable for todays believer, outside its proper manifestation as a gift given by the Holy Spirit and His indwelling at conversion. It was a specific sign to Israel that their long promised Messiah was near at hand. The fact that this sign has been adopted for a huge group of people today is simply wrong headed. Baptism by human efforts is not only adding nothing to the Holy Spirits work but it can be viewed as actually denying it.
     

Share This Page

Loading...