Debate for "Beliefs on Baptism."

Holy Spirit baptism in Scripture is automatic, so the context of my question excludes it. The only baptism that we are ever commanded to administer and undergo is water baptism, so therefore I had to have been talking about it. What are Baptists most famous for? Answer: baptism in water. Hence, I do not believe the clarification on `What baptism are we talking about' should have been needed.

Hence, since you do not believe we have to undergo water baptism to not be sinning, option 4 is closest to your belief. Evidently, your version of the category of beliefs covered by option 4 is that water baptism has been replaced, and if this were the case, it is natural that you would believe we are not sinning by not undergoing it. Am I correct?

 

Matthew 28:19-20 “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, |bautizad = baptize| them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, | enseñad = teach| them to obey everything I have told you| ; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
--NBV|RVA margin and translated|NBV|RVA margin and translated|ICB|NASB.

Acts 2:38a “Arrependei-vos, e seja batizado cada um de vós em nome de Jesus Cristo, para | remissão dos vossos pecados” (DA ERC|DA ERA).
="You-people-repent-you, and let-s/he-be-baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, in-order-for the pardon/remission of you-people’s sins"
Acts 2:38b "and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (ASV).

This passage is often misused to teach `salvation by completed baptism.' The "and" should be understood as "and so." The stronger verb tense is on the strong imperative "You-people-repent-you," with the "let-s/he-be-baptized" being an obligatory subjunctive. Repentance was "in-order-for the pardon/remission" and baptism was obligated by such repentance.

Hence, in Matthew 28:19-20, we are told to administer baptism. In Acts 2:38, we are told to submit to being baptized.

 

Post #21 on this thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=905914&postcount=21
Post #23 on this thread:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=905914&postcount=23

In Post #21, I indicated that Holy Spirit baptism is automatic from God Himself. We do not make the choice to undergo it or not, and we do not administer it. Given the fact that Baptists are most known for emphasis on water baptism, I did not expect such a clarification as to what I am discussing here to be needed.

The passages in Post #23 that I quoted tell us to baptize, and they tell us to get baptized. In the New Testament book of Acts, throughout the book, people are described as being baptized, and Acts 8:26-40 makes it explicit that the baptism being chosen and administered is in water.

 

Thank you, Mr. Black, for finally bringing your concerns to a thread fitting for what you wish to discuss. I will gladly discuss them with you here.

I did not wish for a thread in the fellowship forum to be turned into a debate thread. To me, open Christian fellowship is supposed to build bridges between Christians of various denominations. That was my first concern. I was quite naive in forgetting how much many Christians like to argue their denominational distinctives when the matter of denominational distinctives is even brought up, how much they want to disclaim substantial agreement with others by pointing to a trivial difference, and how some would insist upon arguing their denominational distinctives even if the setting was not appropriate.

Second, I did not want the thread and poll's message to be lost in a pile of unrelated debate posts. The poll's message: to most Christians here on a Baptist discussion board, they may not believe in `salvation by completed baptism,' but they do believe that they ought to be baptized.

Mr. Black, my goal, as indicated by the opening post of the thread in question, is to contradict a specific slander often parroted in certain common United States denominations. Because of this slander, others within these denominations genuinely believe it. In the Churches of Christ, and less so in the Independent Christian churches, it is often claimed that Christians who do not believe in `salvation by completed baptism' do not believe in obeying the command to be baptized at all. My church attendance is typically in these congregations, but whether I agree entirely with another Christian group or not, I do not like to see them misrepresented. I wanted numbers to show that this is a misrepresenation. Hence, I tried to create options that account for the categories of belief about water baptism's relation to salvation.

My goal was not to create a thread to take a vote on every conceived of belief about water baptism. This would not even be possible. It is my understanding that the traditional Reformed view would have chosen option 1. I do not believe that the Reformers considered anything other than faith alone to save, did not seem to link willingness to obey in baptism with faith, and I do not believe that they taught water baptism was something that the Lord was indifferent to.

 

Acts 8:26-39 presents a scenario where an Acts 6 deacon of the Jerusalem congregation named Philip baptizes someone in water. He is called "Philip the evangelist" (ASV) at Acts 21: 8.

I agree. Let us just simply do baptism exactly as the Bible calls us to, remembering that the Bible is the Word of God. Let us simply use Bible methods, do so on the Bible timetable, and most importantly, let us do it.

However, this is not happening. Therefore, it is best to remember Ephesians 2:8-10 “for by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For |in Christ Jesus, God made us new people| for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (ESV|ICB|ESV). Completed baptism is not what makes us saved Christians. Hence, we should be charitable with each other regarding our different perspectives on baptism, including errant ones. My thread in the fellowship forum was an attempt to do this.

 

Baptism in water is Christian. Jesus made it timeless at Matthew 28:19-20. How we often treat each other because of it, however, is not Christian.

Now, the meaning of "completed baptism." In the denominations I created this thread to address with numbers, it is commonly believed that no person is saved until s/he arises from the water. The person's faith is held to not be enough.

I try to correct this proposition not because I want to denigrate the importance of baptism. I believe in light of such passages as 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 2:38 that any genuine faith in the Gospel will motivate a genuine believer, when given opportunity and proper information, to be baptized. I believe that Scripture teaches that a person who is knowingly insubordinate to biblical water baptism is not a genuine believer.

However, we do not live in a perfect church or a perfect world. Not everyone is well-informed, and not everyone gets a chance if s/he converts away from water during impending death, or baptism is withheld from the believer. Teaching that people are only saved when they arise from the water is not only unbiblical, but it could also cause unnecessary worry about others or one's self if s/he is `running out of time,' and it hampers recognition and acceptance of some Christians by others.

 

Paul, starting at 1 Corinthians 1:12 "Now this I mean, that each one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos: and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1COR 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?
1COR 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius;
1COR 1:15 lest any man should say that ye were baptized into my name." (ASV emphasis mine.)

The Corinthians were dividing into factions based upon loyalty to people for their own pride to the disparagement of others. Paul was grateful that none of them could claim baptism by him as a basis for further such activity.