Debate problem. Creatio ex nihilo vs. ex materia

OldShepherd:

I am a moderator on one of the bigger LDS boards populated with quite a few BYU profs. While I can't help you with the Hebrew I can help you with the basis for the LDS teaching of eternal intelligence.
One thing is the LDS like things to be clarified. Their belief in eternal intelligences, to them, answers the "knotty" problem of where does evil come from. They argue that if God truly knows all things, and He then created Lucifer knowing that he would sin, then it follows that God is the author of sin. But if Lucifer's intelligence always existed and God merely procreated a body for him then Lucifer's free agency is alone to blame for the introduction of evil into the universe.

The will strongly argue that "bara" from Genesis is misunderstood by ex nihilo'ites.

 

Too bad I cannot use a Hebrew font here.

Bara' is used a number of times it the OT - pretty much only when God is making something - often out of nothing.

Usually to mold or fashion something gets the word 'asah.

The distinction is of course blurry since bara' is also used about God forming something as well.

Consider the large amount of extant near eastern mythologic literature. Moses here is trying to assert beyond a doubt that it was YHWH who made everything - from the beginning and from nothing.

The grammar here can help you but won't 100% make the case - language is always plastic!!

 

Charles is right about 'bara' being used only with God as the subject when it is the verb. It is a verb used ONLY in connection with actions by God in the Bible.

In Genesis 1, it is used only on three different occasions. Every other time the verb 'asah' is used. When these two verbs are used in contradistinction to each other, the fact that 'asah' means 'formed from pre-existing materials' leaves 'bara' as ONLY meaning, by contrast, creation 'ex nihilo.'

The three times this verb is used are

Genesis 1:1 -- the creation ex nihilo of the time/matter/space continuum

Genesis 1:21 -- the creation of organisms with nephesh, or soul, or the breath of life. (This can be roughly equated to unique individuality as expressed through a complex nervous system). This is absent in the world before this moment, as rocks, stars, water, and even plants are not living the way that complex animal life is, with not only personalities, but the ability to be trained as well as to relate to species other than their own.

Genesis 1:27 -- the creation of man. Man is created in the image of God, and this was new in creation; not done before. Man is the only physical part of creation to have a spirit within a physical body.

The body itself is formed from pre-existing materials, as mentioned in Genesis 2:7, and the nephesh is breathed into man by God in the same verse. Neither of those is new. But the spirit of man is new -- created ex nihilo as evidenced by the third use of the verb 'bara' in Genesis 1.

To deny that these two verbs, 'bara' and 'asah' are being used in contrast to each other is to declare them synonymous and used randomly, neither of which is true.

Hoping that will help a bit.

 

I agree with what has been written so far but would add that the root word for creation, (Bet-resh-aleph) is not a term exclusively reserved for creation out of nothing, for example, it is used for the creation of Israel (Isa 43:15).

There are commentaries that would wholeheartedly agree with the BYO professor that the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo is not so clearly expressed in Genesis 1. But this doesn’t mean that God didn’t create all things out of nothing, the fact that God created that way is certainly implied by other OT passages which speak of His creating everything by his word and of His pre-existence before the world (Ps 148:5; Prov 8:22–27, Neh. 9:6…plenty of other verses too).
The phrase, “heaven and earth” in Genesis 1:1 is a form of speech called a mirism, (it uses two opposite words to create a new expression). The phrase, “heaven and earth” means totality, everything, the whole kit and caboodle; God created the “universe”. It doesn’t matter about how big (or small) previous generations believed the universe to be, God created it all! Did anything exist before God? No! That would negate His transcendence over ALL creation and make the first chapters of Genesis almost meaningless. The Word of God expresses nothing less than a frank creationism.

The New Testament book of Hebrews most clearly sets down the doctrine of creation out of nothing.

(also see Romans 4:17)

Still the idea that God works in an orderly, systematic and progressive way in His creation should not be foreign to students of His Word. God can use previously created matter to develop “a new creation”, as He did when creating Adam, as He does with every new believer.

Rob

 

The idea of creation ex nihilo is a tough one!

I would maintain the the implication of "bara'" in the Pentateuch is that of God divinely creating something. The idea is to cause to exist that which did not exist. The uses in Isaiah and Psalms are more in terms of poetic parallelisms using other verbs such as "'asah" or "yatsar". There's a good discussion of this in TDOT.

Regarding the idea of ex nihilo...

Consider the Babylonian creation myths. These stories have in the beginning primordial monsters from whom all the erath was made. Marduk, the creator, began formal creation after his victory over these monsters - using their carcasses as some of his "raw materials" - ugh!

Certainly Moses has intentionally included some similarities to the Babylonian myths so that the Israelites (having already heard these myths)would recognize that it was YHWH who was the creator and not Marduk. The reference to "the face of the deep" may be such a reference.

But no matter how you slice it the point is that God made to exist that which did not exist!! So the idea is in essence "ex nihilo".

The best commentary I've read on this is the work by Nahum Sarna. VERY GOOD explanations.

 

OldShepard,

If you allow the LDS to use their "holy books" (used VERY loosely, VERY loosely indeed), you have already lost the battle. The books that the Mormons hold up as equal to the Word of God are nothing more than the delusions of men who want to be God, and nothing more. Disregard them for what they are.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Old Shepherd,

Some problems with this dude's translation. Particularly the phrase, "the earth being a desert and a wasteland, with darkness covering the surface of the abyss."

He translates the Hebrew, &#1488&#1514&#1497&#1488
as a dependent participle clause - the earth being. The KJB translation usuing English indicative mood is more correct.

This is important since to use it as a participle gives the sense that he created stuff with the earth being formless - that's not the true sense of the passage.

Also the reference to the derivation on Hebrew "tehom" from Tiamat is also not likely correct.

 

OOPS,

Sorry I messed up the Hebrew font! It's "haytah".

 

Hebrew syntax is a little tough at times. Don't look to any LDS "scholars" to know best! Thanx for the font thing! I assumed I had to type left to right and write the word backwards!

 

Old Shepherd,
Left click on the message icon - it should show the post.