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Deception and OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, May 26, 2009.

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  1. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

    2 Tim 4:4 And will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

    1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
     
    #21 Thinkingstuff, May 28, 2009
  2. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
    1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
     
    #22 Revmitchell, May 28, 2009
  3. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

    2 Tim 4:4 And will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths

    1 Cor 9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified
     
    #23 Thinkingstuff, May 28, 2009
  4. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Does a believer have "an evil, unbelieving heart"? No - this is not speaking of someone who is saved..

    Read the context:

    1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: 2preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 4and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

    It is not speaking of salvation here but those who are led astray in beliefs. We see that there are those in the faith who believe myths - and there are those who claim to be Christians who are easily led to other beliefs because they are not. I do not see this passage saying that there will be those who will leave the faith but who will stray from the truth - whether they are saved or not.

    Would he be disqualified from salvation - or from preaching? Read the context.
     
    #24 annsni, May 28, 2009
  5. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Ok Context. In Hebrews:
    A warning to Christians that they can be lead away from the living God. Yes its to believers to maintain their faith. Unless you're saying that Christians after Justification do not sin or have sinful thought?. Surely your not saying this? The warning is justly taken.

    to your second response: the scripture shows that it is indeed believers that need to maintain their faith lest they fall away and loose it. It is rather clear that they are believers that then can be lead away again.

    to your last reponse: context
    Preaching will no longer be an option but look how paul ends this thought that he maintained his faith and has kept it until the end. So the first part is part of this thought in that you must maintain even as Paul did. Why maintain? So as not to fall away and loose your gift.
     
    #25 Thinkingstuff, May 28, 2009
  6. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Do you think that a saved person has an evil unbelieving heart? That is so clear. "UNBELIEVING HEART" is not a heart that believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, is it? We need to encourage all of those who are in our midst that those who are saved continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and that those who have an unbelieving heart will know Jesus Christ and that, by God's grace, they turn their hearts to Him. But if one has an unbelieving heart, they do not believe.

    Yes - believers who can believe in myths as we see many today and in the past doing. It doesn't mean that they lost salvation.

    Maintain so that you do not lose your witness - and your rewards. But it does not speak of losing salvation.
     
    #26 annsni, May 28, 2009
  7. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Ok no Jedi mind tricks! Lets keep to the truth.....disqualified......
     
    #27 Jedi Knight, May 28, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2009
  8. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    disqualified.....Moses was disqualified to take the people into the promise land when he disobey God. Some mix up blessings which can be conditional with our position in Christ which is not conditional.
     
    #28 Jedi Knight, May 28, 2009
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Thinkingstuff
    Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

    HP: It is amazing to me all the rhetoric about context and to ‘whom something is addressed,’ but if the truth runs contrary to ones presuppositions, context and to whom it is addressed goes out the window in a heart beat. Sad but true.

    “TAKE CARE, BROTHERS,” I could believe it only pertains to men before I could accept the conjecture Ann sets forth.
     
    #29 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  10. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I believe Scripture does represent some who at least were believers, and even possibly in some sense some that are currently believers, as having an unbelieving heart. Of course Doubting Thomas comes to mind as well as these verses.

    Mr 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. Oh yea, and I almost forgot the verse in question. Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
     
    #30 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  11. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    How can a believer have an evil unbelieving heart? I've never seen that in Scripture.
     
    #31 annsni, May 28, 2009
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    What about Moses when he disobeyed? Did he at least for a moment exhibit unbelief? How about David, or Saul, or maybe one of us when we disobeyed a known commandment of God as a believer? Now only one of the examples I mentioned seemed to persist in his unbelief, i.e., Saul. I certainly have no confidence that he made it in. If only one of three mentioned departed from the living God, I would see that as good reason to warn all believers of the danger, just as God faithfully has. The only question is……….whose listening, who has ears to hear?
     
    #32 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  13. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    We're not speaking of a moment of unbelief but an "evil, unbelieving heart". That is so much more.
     
    #33 annsni, May 28, 2009
  14. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: Ann, the warning of the possibility is starring you in the face. If you will not believe the abundant and plain admonishment of God’s Word, what else could one possibly have to offer?
     
    #34 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: When one begins to see unbelief and disobedience, even in one that has ‘believed,’ as evil, having every capability and possibility of placing ones soul in eternal jeopardy, one is not far from the truth.
     
    #35 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    What I see plainly is not that this is speaking of a falling away of a believer but one who never had, as my pastor likes to say, a "heart transplant". A changing of the heart of stone with a heart of flesh.

    It's not just me who sees this in this passage. Here is a message from John Piper on this same passage: http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper96/08-18-96.htm
     
    #36 annsni, May 28, 2009
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    What if one just disobeyed 'one' little time, eating just one little tincy wincy bit out of a forbidden piece of fruit, having been lead astray by their spouse, or so it was claimed? How utterly wicked was that? Somehow God must look at the end of rebellion, not just the beginning. Sin is like a cancer. It festers and always grows in size if left unchecked.

    What does Scripture say? Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
     
    #37 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: I do not know anything other than what you say about your pastor, but the Word of God needs little interpretation on this one. You are ignoring the truth of this verse and to whom directly is speaks to, i.e., ‘brethren.’ Read it again Ann. “Heb 3:12 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in ANY OF YOU an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.”
     
    #38 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
  19. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    He is addressing those in the church - but not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is. Is everyone in your church saved? But if you were speaking to the congregation, would you speak to them as "brothers and sisters"?

    Again, I cannot see an "evil heart of unbelief" being in a believer. It just doesn't square with Scripture.

    Did you read the Piper sermon I posted?
     
    #39 annsni, May 28, 2009
  20. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    HP: If only I could draw cartoons and post them.

     
    #40 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 28, 2009
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