decrees that are absolutely unchangable

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Dewey Sturgell, Aug 15, 2007.

  1. Dewey Sturgell

    Dewey Sturgell
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    Brothers if you comment lets use bible and not mans litature, this is my strongest desire of the scriptures, Ill start with Abraham and his Faith that was given to him to proceed to kill his son, but he didnt , because he never ,was it because God already had his sacrifice decreed for the furture of this time ,the promise of all the children of Faith in Christ. For abraham said that God has provided himself a( lamb)
     
    #1 Dewey Sturgell, Aug 15, 2007
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  2. Dale-c

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    I believe so, I believe it was decreed to be.
    I know you want just scripture but sometimes wiser men of God who have years of study can be helpful.

    I would suggest you listen to "Of God's Decree" be Arden Hodgins.

    You can find it on Sermonaudio.
     
  3. Allan

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    Interesting, but I missed the verse that states God gave Abraham the faith to offer his son as a Sacrifice. Please show the verse that established this idea of God giving Abraham the faith to 'proceed to kill his son". I can't find it in the story at all. What version are you using? (j/k) :)
     
  4. charles_creech78

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    Ge 21:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said. Behold. here I am. Ge 22:2 And he said, take now thy son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. Ge 22:9 and they came to place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an alter there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the alter upon the wood. Ge 22:10 And abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. Ge 22:11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, here am I. Ge 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for NOW I KNOW THAT THOU FEAREST GOD, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
     
  5. Allan

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    Nope, I don't see it there either. Thanks Charles.
     
  6. David Lamb

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    I believe that Abraham was obedient to God's command, but that through faith, he knew the truth of what Paul would later write about "all things working together for good to those who love God." Genesis 22.4-5:

    4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted his eyes and saw the place afar off.
    5 And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey; the lad and I will go yonder and worship, and we will come back to you." ​


    He believed that even if Isaac were to be killed, God was able to raise him up. Hebrews 11.17-19:

    17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
    18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called,"
    19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.​


    Abraham looked forward by faith to Jesus Christ. John 8.53-58:

    52 Then the Jews said to Him, "Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’
    53 "Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
    54 Jesus answered, "If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God.
    55 "Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
    56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
    57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
    58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."​
     
  7. charles_creech78

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    Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the alter? Jas 2:22 Seest thou how FAITH wrought with his WORKS, and by works WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the friend of God. Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
     
    #7 charles_creech78, Aug 16, 2007
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  8. Brother Bob

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    How could he be the father of faith, if it was given to him?

    Rom 4:12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.

    Rom 4:16Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
     
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  9. Dewey Sturgell

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    Well I figured that the way I worded this thread might cause some questions, not to cause any confussion but to see how many would debate about Abraham recieving (FAITH) What makes be believe this is that God before the world began Decreed, purposed,chose, elected ,predestinated,forknew,created things unto himself the things that pleased him, so from what I understand from this is that God had total control of man before he even was: For God knew what it would take to have Abraham believe in him: for God created Abramham as so did he me ,Exsamples; one: if I gave a tool to my friend, John then his wife could ask him if he used HIS tool that was GIVEN to him althought it was'nt his before I gave it to him but after he recieved it ,it became his, I dont believe that Abraham, Noah,Jacob,Moses or any other of the brothern in the old testament just woke up one day and decided to believe in God ON THIER OWN I just can not see it , for if God is the director of our lives he provides the tools that are needed to PROCEED IN THE PLAN OF HIS DECREES, For when I pick up the Bible and read it I seem to see that God was the HEAD of it ALL and God from the beginning knows what it would take to convince you in to belief: For faith,belief,trust,are substances that God used in usward to do his will :we ourselves didnt just wake up one day and decide to believe God ,But when we recieved a measure of Faith we began a journey towards heavenly places: So im not forcing this on anyone ,for if the DOOR to this room is shut Ive tried to open it through the working of my Lord , some of you will say that Ive twisted this but it seems that God being the front runner to all things we only recieve what he gives:for to say that I or anyone else just choses to believe in God is something I dont understand, for God that created me and knew when to imput my belief unto me which when i use it then it becomes mine, which I firmly believe that about the hole Bible :May the Grace of our Lord be with you,Amen. Also in my last statement i say to the weak i became weak to the strong i became strong that i may gain my brother, so to some it was Abrahams Faith but to the strong it was given unto him by God!!!! and to those that need milk Abraham had Faith but to those that are on meat it was the devine power of God that gave it to him.
     
    #9 Dewey Sturgell, Aug 16, 2007
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  10. Allan

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    Interesting, but in your OP you stated:
    "...lets use bible ..." But the scripture you want to discuss says nothing about Abraham recieving faith from God to kill his child. That was the position you chose to debate from the scripture and it is not there. Another thing: man is not an abstract tool (like a wrench or screwdriver) to God.

    Another: No one has EVER stated in this thread nor in the common Non-Cal view amoung Baptists that man just up and decides to believe in God on their own. That is patently incorrect and a perpetuated misrepresentation.

    However: Please show where God 'gives' us faith that we might believe.
    Please show where scripture states - It is the weak who hold faith is ours, but it is the strong who beleive it God gave it to them.
    No one denies that God gave to every man faith, but the question is - when?

    We do see Abraham walking 'in faith', and Abraham acting 'in faith', and as Charles quoted from the scriptures:
    Apparently God was testing the faith of Abraham to see just how real it was. It was apparently untested or proven True Faith UNTIL THIS moment. Charles also quoted James which is also a parallel here:
    According the scriptures Abrahams Justification came not when he left harth and home to go where God commanded him, but when he set forth to slay his son.

    You may state that God had already given the faith to Abraham and now he was merely acting it out. But I ask, IF not all men have faith but the elect only - Then how can those who according to scripture DO have faith ever have a vain or dead faith. According to you all Faith is centered in Christ, it is that which comes from God that we will do His good will. And yet we find in many places that a faith which does not produce works (literally good works by faith which are acceptable to God) is a vain faith (empty faith), a dead faith (having no life or acceptability toward a living God).

    So how can there be vain, or dead faith if faith is something that is given by God only to the redeemed? And if you contend now there is actaully two kinds of faith (God givin and another) I have some questions:
    (1) why did God need to give a special type of faith other than the faith man already has?
    (2) If regeneration (in the Calvinistic sense) makes a man alive unto God and thereby has no choice but to choose God, does this regeneration not also make the faith within man already - alive as well?
    (3) and if so, why is it now necessary to give this mystical new 'faith' to man, when the faith man already has in now alive unto God like the new man already is?

    The problem is, is that we do not find in scripture God 'giving' faith to anyone in the sense they never had it. Why - because it is something already present within man to use. But unless God intervene mans faith will always upon that which has no life and therefore 'dead' and 'vain'.

    PS. The strong or mature have no need to boast over the weeker or immature brethren, for the truth of the matter is that the stronger or mature brethren became the strength of the week and not their accuser :) . The strong did not boast of their knowledge or maturity but came along side, and that which was sin to the weeker became sin to the strong as well.
     
    #10 Allan, Aug 16, 2007
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  11. charles_creech78

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  12. Dewey Sturgell

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    Actually thats the truth for the word Faith isnt even used until the book of Deuteronomy it only states belief,also I dont believe that I wrote that God used us or his pleasures as tools I did use an example of me using a tool as a type of alligory, It seems that some of the brothers imply that they chose God when seeking for the Kingdom of God,Heaven. ROMANS 12:3 For I say,through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly accordingas GOD hath dealt to every man the measure of (FAITH). MARK 5:40 and he said unto them, why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no FAITH, ROMANS 5:22 Even the righteouness of GOD which is by the FAITH of JESUS CHRIST unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference; ROMANS 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believe on him that justifieth the UNGODLY, his Faith is counted for righteouness . ROMAN 4:6 Even as DAVID also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom GOD imputeth righteouness with works. ROMANS 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised he was able to preform. ROMANS 4:22 and therefore it was imputed to him for righteouness. ROMANS 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him: ROMANS 4:24 But for us also; to whom it shall be Imputed, if we believe on him that raised up JESUS our LORD from the dead ; GALATIANS 3:23 BUT before FAITH came we were kept under the law, shut up unto FAITH which should afterwords be revealed, GALATIANS 3:24 therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto CHRIST that we might be justified by FAITH, GALATIANS 3:25 But after FAITH is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster, GALATIANS 3:26 For ye are all the children of GOD by the FAITH in CHRIST. COLOSSIANS 2:6
    As ye have therefore recieved CHRIST JESUS the LORD, so walk ye in him, COLOSSIANS 2:7 Rooted and built up in him and stablished in the FAITH, as ye have been taught abounding there in with thanks giving. COLOSSIANS 2:12 Buried with him in baptist, where ye are risen with him through the FAITH of the operation of GOD, who hath rasied him from the dead. THESSALONIANS 3:2 And that we may be delievered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not FAITH,
    (WHICH IS CHRIST JESUS).
    HEBREWS 12:2 Looking unto JESUS the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our FAITH: who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross: despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the THRonE of GOD,

    well these are most of the scriptures that gives be the belief that GOD imputes Faith and righteouness that is from his blessed son CHRIST JESUS, I should'nt have wrote to imply boasting please forgive me for it greived me later , my true intensions is to prove that GOD is our beginning and ending of all our substance except sin and evil, all good things come from above , For the scripture tells us ts speak them things that become sound doctrine:
    to answer to the best of my knowledge mans so called faith has no GODLYNESS to it for its only a belief that there is a GOD not that they believe in GOD, for like you and I say true Faith in God is to die to the world in CHRIST where the life is , so then and only then does it become true FAITH, for we are able to see the riches that GOD has for his ELECT and the joy of a holy spirit , which mans faith has no spirit but the Faith that is in our LORD JESUS is a living spirit of God, may the GRace of God be with you .amen ps thats why mans faith is dead and vain, and why Gods faith is alive ,amen
     
    #12 Dewey Sturgell, Aug 17, 2007
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  13. Allan

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    Part 1
    What are you saying here. Are you saying that faith and belief are two different things?
    If so, the scripture passage already quoted from James shows (before Duet) that Abraham had faith, though it was called belief. They are the noun and verb forms of the same word.
    Did these brothers state the went seeking the Kingdom of God or God for that matter on their own with Gods grace? Don't assume a position, just ask them.
    You will find very few (even Calvinists) who agree with your ...understanding of this verse. I will quote John MacAurther (one of the leading Calvinists in our time) John M on Romans 12:3
    The Commentaries of Barnes (another Calvinist) agree, Clark (a non-Calvinist) agree, Jamieson-Faussett-Brown agree and so on and so forth.
    This isn't what you are superinending it to mean, that God did not give them faith. If it was, then you have a bigger problem trying to answer why Jesus thought they were supposed to have it. Thus His "How is it..."
    This also is not about God 'giving' faith but about His righteousness being given unto any and all that believe.
    This also has abosolutely nothing to do with God 'giving' us faith because we never had it. Yet here it epitomizes that the opposite of your contention. The action and origin of faith here in this verse if from the subject using the faith. That is all it discribes
    Your line of reasoning to use each of the above (and including this one) alludes me because I do not see in any way shape of form how any of these are to be used to show God 'giving' us faith. Being that the imputed righteousness is not the same as 'giving' faith. Being 'imputed' is an action done after faith has been excersized by the person who will believe. Your contention is that God gives faith according His choice when man doesn't desire to have it in the first place. (no man seeks after God)
    Look at verse 22 to determine what the "Faith" is; The faith of or in Christ Jesus.
    It is referencing our religion (The Faith). Christ being the object of that belief system is also equated as that belief - Faith, as shown in 22-25.
    Verse 26 shows the person NOW that Christ is come may excersize belief in the very object of our Faith - Christ Jesus. No where here in does it make the claim this 'faith' came from God as though it was something man never had. You can find this stuff out by looking at many different commentaries without needing to go into the Greek yourself, if the plain reading of the text causes confussion. I have looked at many different Calvinistic Commentaries before I even sat down to type this and other responces to see if the concured, and they do. So is this something you have gathered on your own studies? You seem to be bringing a large amount of presupposition to the text, to try to see your view in it.
    This does nothing for your contention here either. It states as YOU have recieved - which the Greek states the word 'received' is in the active tense - meaning the subject (You) as the doer or performer of the action (Received). Not that God 'gave it to them' as you are again presuming. That is not the constuct of the sentence nor is it the context of message.
    Again this gives no merit to your contention. The action of faith being giving is in the object which is the operation of God (salvation), not that God gave faith.

    Finally we agree. Not all men do have saving faith. But I will bring you back to my questions in my previous post about if men HAVE faith (or the ability to believe) then why must God give this new mystical faith, when the man is regenerated (In the Calvinistic sence of regeneration) so his faith would also be to - and therefore it would now be able to be savingly used. Does not the scritpture declare of the new man - ALL THINGS have become NEW (this would include mans Faith which he already has), Old things are PASSED AWAY, Behold ALL THINGS have become NEW.

    Please sir, look at the context of these veres and also the Greek. Go back and study them for yourself. You have not once shown faith being a thing 'given' by God as though it was something that man never had or could have with Gods intervention. Much less as a thing given To ABRAHAM TO SLAY HIS SON as the OP implies.

    But not one shows any such thing. Even among the majority of the Calvinist commentators. However, Yes, some do speak of God imputing righteousness to us when we act in faith. But again, not once it is said nor implied faith is imputed to us.
    I was not offended, but your appology is accepted brother. :1_grouphug:
     
    #13 Allan, Aug 17, 2007
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  14. Allan

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    Part 2

    No one questions this, not even the Non-Cals.
    Faith is neither Good nor evil (it is void of any of these qualities in and of itself), but it is the object of faith to which it has been placed which defines it's goodness or lack there of. The quality of faith is dependent upon the object in and to which it is set.
    Therefore, the object of our faith Christ Jesus is said to have come down from heaven, is He not? The very object in which our faith finds it worth or Godlyness/Holyness/Righteousness.

    Faith has no spirit at all, but I understand what you are trying to say. This is answered (IMO) pretty much the same as my previous answer.

    You have only spoken of the object of faith though, and I agree with that. But no where is it spoken of as God faith and man faith, and that God must give us His faith. This has not been shown from the scriptures. There is Godly faith (because of its object) and ungodly (because of its object). But the fact still remains that man does have the ability to have faith (even you accerted that) so why does God need to give this New Faith, when man is regenerated and all things become new? Is mans faith the only thing that was not regenerated and made new? If it is made 'new' then it was already in existence within man.

    If you can't see what I'm doing, I'm showing the logical falisy of God 'giving' faith as though it was something that was never there or that it was not regenerated along the rest of the New Man of which Faith is the cornerstone.

    I think more Non-Cals would have less contention on this subject if the Calvinist would say faith is something all men have but that all men can not use it in a saving way without the direct intervention of God towards man.

    In Christ,
    your brother.
     
    #14 Allan, Aug 17, 2007
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  15. Rippon

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    In 2 Thess.3:2 ..." for not everyone has faith " ( NIV ) . All people do not have faith . Do the wicked and evil ones mentioned in the first part of the verse have faith ? Of course not . Faith is given only to God's elect . Those are the ones who have been appointed to eternal life ( Acts 13;48 ) . Only the sheep , not the non-sheep are granted faith .
     
  16. Allan

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    Read Post #10
     
    #16 Allan, Aug 18, 2007
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  17. David Lamb

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    Brother Bob, I can see that it might be a difficult if fathers "created" their children, but they don't. God's words through Joshua to the Children of Israel, in Joshua 24.2-4 say:

    2 And Joshua said to all the people, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the River in old times; and they served other gods.
    3 ‘Then I took your father Abraham from the other side of the River, led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his descendants and gave him Isaac.
    4 ‘To Isaac I gave Jacob and Esau. To Esau I gave the mountains of Seir to possess, but Jacob and his children went down to Egypt.

    (Emphasis mine).

    Was Abraham the father of Isaac? Yes of course he was. Yet it is also true that God gave him Isaac. The same with Isaac and his twin sons.

    We might just as well ask, "How could Abraham be the father of Isaac, if Isaac was given to him?"
     
  18. Dewey Sturgell

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    Well I can see that there is no resolve for you believing what I implied, for you see it your way bless you , but I still see it my way, evidently no matter what scriptures I use we will place them to our own beliefs, not withstanding that I used to see it your way: but now my heart has changed to give God credit for all that my substance is besides sin and evil, thats why its called debate, the few that you say see it my way would probable be more than what you think it to be, for myself to think that I had faith of my own: that to me is crazy ,for if we teach our children to believe that there is a heaven and a hell, it still does not establish faith in them, but when they begen to fear God; for that is the works of God that establishes thier faith : I could write all day the way I believe and not convience you but bless you all the same my friend in Christ, I dont see this as being contenuos but maybe you do for Its only a debate my brother , regardless of the out come let me imply to you ; for if we only obtain a measure, WHAT IS THE FULL FAITH?? may God bless you always through our LORD JESUS;amen.
     
  19. Allan

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    Dewey, What I quoted to you was not MY view but other Calvinists. Namely MacArthur, Matthew Henry, and Barnes - others I just referenced to see if they held the same. Your contention regarding these scripture aren't against my view (per se - though partially it is) but against other Calvinists who hold the same belief you do, which is faith is given by God. Even they don't see the scriptures you quote as you do. That was part of my point.

    So does every non-calvinistic Baptist regarding the common belief held amoung us.
    Debate is about your presenting your side, Then I present my side, while debating/argueing certian points of your view. and you do the same back. That is why it is called debate. Not you give your view and everyone is supposed agree. We agree on truth that can not be debated, not because it is taboo to touch it but because there is no other conclusion with all the facts. Yet your view here has never been 'established' or proven biblically conclusive, ever. That is why it is still debated today, otherwise it would be amoung the immutable truths of scriptue, like Christs deity, the virgin birth, death, burial, resurrection, and by grace you are saved through faith. (as well as many others).

    I was stating the 'few' being in context of your passage of which you tried to say was God giving saving faith. To be fair to you I even quoted a reknown Calvinist who is held in high esteem amoung his peers. J. MacArthur.
    According to scripture you did, but it was vain or dead. But you still had faith and that was my original point, and my second postings closing point. The only qualitive value faith has is in the object to which it yeilds itself to.
    If you are here to convince people you need to seriously rethink that. Many of the people of here are well studied, or Bible College educated, and others of us have been trianed via Seminary and or all the above. (not that your aren't any of these - I'm just speaking generalities) These aren't stated to say these learned men know more than others but that most here have studied well the scriptures and know what position they hold FROM the Scriptures.

    We come here to set forth the our beliefs regarding the scriptures as we see or know them and place them in the 'guantlet' (so to speak) to see how they fare when put to task. Some learn they were incorrect, some see where the other side is coming form and though disagree can see why they hold their view, and others ... well some other just need to change :laugh:
    However, you should understand this is not the best place to try to convince people of your view. This is the place to debate them.
    Have I given you the impression I thought that?? I'm sorry if I did because I thought it was going rather well considering some who debate here in.
    The measure does not refer to saving faith. Read the context of the passage again. The get some commentaries and listen to what they state then look again at the passage in context, and see what you find. I admit there are Non-Cals who try to use this verse to mean every one has a measure of faith but again, context dictates they too are incorrect. This faith is directly proportionate to the gifts Paul is speaking of.

    Full Faith - like the one talked about here:
    If you will notice full faith or maturity in Christ is found in verse 13

    And you to, brother.
     
    #19 Allan, Aug 18, 2007
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  20. Dewey Sturgell

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    I appreciate your comments my brother,for I to believe that this site is only debates, and I understand what your writing , for my intention are simple to see what the other brothers bring up in thier debates so I can see all sides as much as God lets me understand for I dont see eye to eye with my pastor on some things but its all good , also I myself dont really like to argue about the bible that just seems like strife to me, not that im impling that to you so dont take it that way please my brother,
    For Im enjoying our conversation, so with that in mind lets return to the decrees,
    Lets start with Adam and Eve,
    We know that the Bible states that God forseen the wholeness of his creation before Adam and Eve and to his pleasure saw that it was good , but yet it repented God that he ever made man.
    In your own thoughts how could this be , for he decreed the the plan to be executed, even though it sorrowed his heart,
    And to whom in your understanding did he repent,
    Could this be that God did this to show us that we are no better for when we concieve or admonished with grief, I dont really grasp the whole concept of decreeing something that would grieve my self but yet im not God and dont intend to say so,
    but this beginning of his decrees with Adam and Eve come starting in the outskirts of eden where it was pleasurable to him, but afters grieved him to repent
    Now dont take it the wrong way but if i worded this write please let me read your thoughts,if i never wrote it to you and you dont understand how im asking this please forgive for this thought of and mine may not be questioned right i tried my best to write it the way ive been thinking it ,thank you for your time and thoughts, for all i want you to see is true love, may the Grace cover your spirit at all time ,amen.
    ps i look forward to your response,and i have more uncommon questions and debates , Love in Christ to you,
     

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