Deeds/Works of the Law

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Dec 7, 2011.

  1. The Biblicist

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    Rom. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    The Law of Moses is designed to provide "the knowledge of sin." It does this by distinguishing between [and thus defining] what is right in God's sight versus what is wrong in God's sight.

    The "deeds of the law" or "works of the law" are responses of the Jews in keeping with what the Law defines as good and right. This should be obvious as those attitudes/actions the law defined as sin would never be used by a Jew for justification before God and that is the subject in the above verse - "justified in His sight."

    The Mosaic Law was founded upon the Ten Commandments as its basic foundation. The Civil law was nothing more than application of the ten commandments to their Judicial system. The Ceremonial law was nothing more than application of the ten commandments to their religious system. The ceremonial law gave a visual representation of righteousness and sin (clean versus unclean) in everything the Jew did in his social and religious life.

    Hence, the law of Moses was the most comprehensive application of moral right and wrong to every facit of the Jewish life more than any other people upon the face of the earth.

    Therefore, if doing the good works of the most comprehensive revealed standard of righteousness on planet earth was insufficient to acheive "justification" before God then no lessor application of good works could achieve that goal. Hence, Paul argues from greater to lessor. For example, the Gentile had a lessor standard of righteousness revealed through conscience (Rom. 2:14-15) for which they would be held accountable for their attitudes and actions. However, in judgement it would be the "jew first" and then the Gentile as the Jew had far more revealed light of right and wrong.

    Thus, "deeds of the law" represents the most refined and comprehensive attempts by any human being to find justification before God based upon their attempted conformation to the most comprehensive standard of righteousness ever given to man. Hence, it simply means "good works."

    This is seen clearly by Paul providing the Pre-Mosaic Law Abraham and his "works" as the role model in regard to being insufficient for justification before God:

    Rom. 4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
    2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

    Obviously, Abraham would not attempt to be justified "before God" by evil works and therefore what is in view is the possibility of Abraham being justified before God by what could be regarded in man's sight as good works.

    Hence, Romans 3:20 and Romans 4:1-2 forbid justification before God by either "deeds" or "works" that are attempts to conform to the Law of Moses or attempts to conform to the law of conscience. Human responses to conform to the Law of God written upon stone or conscience cannot justify anyone before God simply because such responses "come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) which speaks directly to the root of all sin in man which is his MOTIVE for all that he thinks, says and does for some other motive than "the glory of God."
    Hence, he is incapable of either being or doing good as that requires a righteous heart that seeks the glory of God in all that he does:


    9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
    17 And the way of peace have they not known:
    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
    19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.


    To be "UNDER sin" (v. 9) is to be "UNDER law" (v. 19) and that is equally true of all Gentiles as Jews (v. 9) whether that Law be in its most comprehensive form (Moses) or in its least comprehensive form (conscience) it is still the SAME LAW originating from the SAME GOD who has the SAME BASIC STANDARD OF RIGHTEOUSNESS:

    Rom. 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)


    CONCLUSION: If "good" works as defined by the most comprehensive revelation of God's law (Moses) will not justify a person before God; then "good" works by the least comphrensive revelation of God's law (conscience) will not justify a person "before God." Hence, the only way for both to be justified before God is ANOTHER WAY provided by God in and through ANOTHER PERSON and His good works- Rom. 3:24-26.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Dec 7, 2011
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  2. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    What windmill are you fighting against today Biblicist?? Where is one single person that claims or has ever claimed on this list, that anyone is justified before God on the acount of, for the sake of, their good works??? Are you trying to scare away ghosts, just in case any appear? :smilewinkgrin:
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Nice try! Many on this forum define "deeds of the law" to be Paul's rejection of the idea that one must become a Jew to be justified instead of Paul's rejection of the idea that "good works" (personal righteous obedience to God) justify a person before God.
     
  4. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    If one does not become a Jew spiritually, they will not be saved. Anyone that does not bear fruits of righteousness and continue in the faith until the end will be lost for eternity.

    Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    John 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
    Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
    Col 1:23 IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

    Jn 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF THAT which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.


     
  5. The Biblicist

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    Well, so much for the intential ruse of your former post! Now the fangs are out and the growling under the sheep skin is clearly seen.
     
  6. Gup20

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    Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

    Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    One point of error I see in your opening post. It isn't that the law is incapable of showing a person to be righteous.... it is that we as human beings are incapable of following the law.

    Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.​


    There are two methods of attaining righteousness; The Law (works) and Faith (believing the gospel). These are the two covenants whereby man can be righteous.

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    The reason given in Romans 3:23 for Romans 3:20 is this - No flesh will be justified by the law because all have sinned and violated the law. It is NOT that the law in incapable of saving... it is that all have violated the law and are no longer eligible for salvation through the law.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    Don't ever recall making any such statement! Indeed, I said the very opposite. I said the law did reveal right and wrong but only man was incapable of doing it! Your two texts above destroy your position. The law requires a person to KEEP ON DOING IT without violating one point and that is precisely why the law is NOT OF FAITH but rather is all about DOING THOSE THINGS AS REQUIRED BY THE LAW - sinless perfection - not one point violation - never coming "short of the glory of God" etc.,


    :BangHead: You have simply repeated the same method and called it "two methods."

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
    20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
    21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
    22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
    23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Paul disagrees with you as he concluded that IF life could have come by the Law then that would be the way BUT IT CANNOT COME BY THE LAW and so it CANNOT BE THE WAY:

    ......for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

    The problem is not the law but man is flawed by a SINFUL NATURE!
     
  8. Gup20

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    I don't think the term "Jew" is important, nor is it necessary. The point in the scripture is to show that there are two ways to be counted as Abraham's seed and therefore heirs of the promises God gave him.

    Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


    Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
    7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
    29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Jew... Greek... Gentile... Galatians 3 tells us these terms are meaningless. It is those who have the righteousness which is by faith that are counted as the seed of Abraham ... those who have faith in Jesus Christ. We are the heirs of the promise God gave Abraham.

    Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  9. Gup20

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    Perhaps I misunderstood when you said:
    "Therefore, if doing the good works of the most comprehensive revealed standard of righteousness on planet earth was insufficient to acheive "justification" before God then no lessor application of good works could achieve that goal."​

    You said the "most comprehensive standard" was "insufficient to achieve justification". In actuality, the standard is sufficient if anyone could adhere to the standard. In other words, The Law of Moses CAN give life if one were to follow it perfectly and never sin (as Jesus did).

    Then you said, "Hence, Romans 3:20 and Romans 4:1-2 forbid justification before God by either "deeds" or "works" that are attempts to conform to the Law of Moses or attempts to conform to the law of conscience."

    No, it doesn't forbid justification before God by following the law, it shows that no one is qualified to do so because all have committed sin and are therefore ineligible. Not that the standard is insufficient or forbidden from use - but that none could measure up to the standard and thereby qualify for it's application to effect their righteousness.

    In other words:
    Hey everyone -- anyone who hasn't committed sin raise your hand - you are righteous and get eternal life!! But no one can raise their hand because we've all sinned. It isn't that this righteousness isn't available through the law... it's that no one meets the eligibility requirements.



    Right... eh... not sure what your point is or how the texts "destroy my position."

    Only if you errantly believe that faith is a work. If you believe this, you are monumentally deceived. More on that later.

    Why? Why can't life come from the law? I will tell you why. Because all have sinned! Not because the law is incapable. You ignored these two verses:

    These verses say life CAN come by the law as long as the law is kept. The problem is, one sin and it's game over. The wage of sin is death.

    Look at Romans 3:19 -

    Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    Guess what - if you sin, you are no longer under the law. Why? Dead people are no longer under the law. Just like the woman who's husband dies is no longer bound by the law to her husband.

    Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

    Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
    10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

    Now... to address the more serious matter of faith being a work --

    There are two covenants whereby man can be righteous. The Law (works) and Faith (belief in the gospel).

    Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Very clearly and explicitly, faith is not a work.

    Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

    Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
    22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
    23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
    24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
    25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    27 For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
    28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
    29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
    30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
    31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.



    So there are two covenants whereby righteousness can come - The Law (Mt. Sinai) which is "works", and The Promise (which is faith, or belief in the gospel).
     
  10. lakeside

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    the Biblicist,there are rewards above and beyond eternal life and that eternal life is a gift of grace, but Scripture plainly teaches that eternal life itself is a reward or fruit of our good deeds.

    One passage which spells this out is Galatians 6:7-10: "Whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. So let us not grow weary in well-doing [Gk, "working good"], for in due season we will reap, if we do not lose heart. So then, as we have opportunity, let us do good [Gk, "work good"] to all men, and especially to those who are of the household of faith."

    In this passage Paul states that "eternal life"--not just unspecified "rewards"--is the harvest "reaped" as a result of "sowing to the Spirit" through "well-doing" or "doing good to all men."

    I use the analogy by pointing out that the harvest is still a "gift" of God, since the act of sowing does not make the seed alive or cause it to grow. The act of sowing undeniably leads to the harvest, and the same is true of our good deeds and eternal life.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Yes, you clearly misunderstood me. Reread that statement in the overall context. The Mosaic Law was the most comprehensive revealed standard of righteousness which promised eternal life IF any man could measure up to its standard - not one point violated at any time - sinless perfection - never coming "short of the glory of God" in regard to MOTIVE for anything and everything you might say or do! That is why no justification, no eternal life can possibly come by law keeping for any SINNER (= a sinner is someone who has sinned once). No infant is born with the right MOTIVE - do all for the glory of God.

    That was exactly my intent when I said the following:

    Human responses to conform to the Law of God written upon stone or conscience cannot justify anyone before God simply because such responses "come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) which speaks directly to the root of all sin in man which is his MOTIVE for all that he thinks, says and does for some other motive than "the glory of God."
    Hence, he is incapable of either being or doing good as that requires a righteous heart that seeks the glory of God in all that he does


    No, it forbids justification to everyone included in these UNIVERSAL TERMS

    "EVERY mouth" and "ALL the World" "NO flesh"






    There are no humans born into this world through natural regenation from two human parents that have been or do have the ability to keep the law as defined by the law. There is no possibility simply because a "good" tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit and every single solitary human born of two parents coming into this world brings forth evil fruit, hence the tree must be evil from birth. Evil human nature brings forth evil human fruit.



    No, because there are not two possible ways to obtain eternal life. The ONLY possible way is by faith - period! The law way is theoretical but not possible.



    Wrong! Not because all have sinned! But because there IS none Good including babies. If babies were "good" then a "good tree" cannot bring forth evil fruit but all babies bring forth evil fruit WITHOUT TRAINING but have to be disciplined by parents to do "good" in the sight of men.

    Wrong! Good trees cannot bring forth evil fruit but only good fruit. It is not because of "a" sin but because all are born sinners. We sin because we are sinners. Jesus says sin is the product of an evil heart not vica versa.



    You are confusing "dead in sin" with "dead in Christ" and they are not the same. We are physicaly born "dead in sin" but we must be supernaturally born to be "dead in Christ."

    The term "can" speaks of ability or at least possibility and NEITHER is true in regard to man born of two human parents. Infants are born as a "bad" tree and the proof is that they ALWAYS bring forth "bad" fruit.
     
  12. Gup20

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    I think we may use different terms, but I think we agree here. Let me try it another way; if a man could keep the law, he could live in it. But since he cannot keep the law, he is dead in his sin. Would you agree?

    Oh, I'm starting to see your argument is one of original sin being passed on and inherited by future generations. This, of course, is unbiblical as scripture says that death, not sin, is passed.

    Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Note that it says "death passed" and not "sin passed." Also note it says "for all have sinned." This means that each person is being held accountable for his own sin, not the sin of Adam. If sin was passed, and we were all guilty of sin in Adam, then it would say "sin passed" and it would say "for that Adam sinned:" rather than "for that all have sinned:". In other words, death is a universal consequence that entered the world because of Adam's sin and death is inherited from Adam. Sin is not inherited (Ezekiel 18:20). Each of us is responsible for our own righteousness. Our righteousness or unrighteousness is our own. This is why we need individual salvation, and not collective salvation (for example, liberation theology teaches collective salvation).

    Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Here it says our judgement comes after our death. If sin is passed rather than death, then the death within us now is our individual judgement for Adam's sin. But this passage says that judgement comes after death, not before death. Therefore, we can see that death is inherited, and individual judgement comes after death.

    If sin was inherited contrary to Romans 5:12, then Jesus - being a "son of man" would have inherited sin and would have deserved death.

    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    But Jesus' humanity inherited death, not sin.

    On this we agree.

    1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

    Eze 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, [and] hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
    20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    The passage in Matthew 7 was never intended to speak of sexual reproduction. The verses about fruit (verses 15-20) talk about being weary of false prophets. It begins and ends with the statement "you shall know them by their fruits."

    If, as you assert, this is talking about sexual reproduction and passing on or inheriting sin... and all are guilty of sin in Adam... then ALL men would be "evil fruit" and the statement "you will know them by their fruit" is ridiculous and useless. In order to know them by their fruit, some must be good and some must be bad for you to judge between the good and bad.

    What is your Biblical basis for this wild claim? Dead in Christ? Where did you invent this?

    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
    3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

    Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.​


    It was Abraham's faith - not God's faith given to Abraham - that caused him to be counted as righteous.

    Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
    Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    God is the judge. He declares one righteous or unrighteous. This is based on our behavior and choices - even on what we believe. His Word says IF we believe, He will impute that belief as righteousness.
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Sin and death are INSEPARABLE! The latter is the consequence of the former. In regard to representation ("by one man") One cannot be passed down without the other being passed down. Sin "separates" man from God (Isa.59:2; Eph. 4:18) and death IS separation. Where there is no sin there is no death and where there is no death there is no sin. By ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many were MADE sinners.

    Absolutely and completely totally false! This false explanation goes right against the grain for the repeated explanation by Paul that "BY ONE MAN" demonstrating that Adam acted as the representative for all mankind when he sinned, all sinned by representation. Hence, their death is directly tied to the Adamic sin or BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many be "condemned" "made sinners" "many be dead" ALL these phrases directly the cause defined over and over again "BY ONE MAN"


    Not if Adam is being viewed as a REPRESENTATIVE acting in behalf of all born of him just as Christ is being viewed as a REPRESENTATIVE acting in behalf of all born of him.


    Not possible unless the sin is univeral as well as death is the direct result of sin and not for someone's own personal sin! Universal death is due to Universal sin and the only possible way it can be one or the other is because all born of Adam were REPRESENTED by "ONE MAN."




    Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Here it says our judgement comes after our death. If sin is passed rather than death, then the death within us now is our individual judgement for Adam's sin. But this passage says that judgement comes after death, not before death. Therefore, we can see that death is inherited, and individual judgement comes after death. [/QUOTE]

    Death comes AFTER SIN in the case of Adam and in the case of all REPRESENTED BY ONE MAN - Adam.

    Absolutely false! The virgin birth was not an accident! The virgin birth was not for the fun of it! There is a reason for the virigin birth of Christ. The reason should be obvious when you argue against something hereditory and representative!!!!!! You do not receive everything from your mother!!! Hence, it if is hereditary there are aspects of human nature passed down from the father to child.



    If the children were not born unclean, then why is there any need to be sanctificed by the believing parent??????

    You are confusing the INDIVIDUAL PERSONAL sins of fathers (plural) with the REPRESENTATIVE SIN of Adam to his children as the singular father of the human race.

    It is also used in Matthew 12 and in both cases it has to do with the principle that the product cannot be different than the source. Infants demonstrate by their products what the source is -indwelling sin.


    .



    You said,

    Guess what - if you sin, you are no longer under the law. Why? Dead people are no longer under the law. Just like the woman who's husband dies is no longer bound by the law to her husband.

    I thought you were referring to those in Romans 3:19-20 in context or lost persons. You must have meant a Christian by "you" instead of a lost person. My response was to "you" being a lost person. A lost person is "dead in sin" and not "dead in Christ" and thus not dead to the law but under the law.

    However, if you are talking about saved people not be "under the law" when they sin what has that to do with our subject of the sin nature prior to salvation?????
     
  14. Gup20

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    Romans 5:12 says by one man sin entered the world, and then death entered the world because of that sin.

    Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    The reason I treat them separately is because the Bible treats them separately. Death is a consequence for sin. They are not the same thing... one is an action, the other is a result or consequence.

    I realize you adhere to a calvinistic type of belief and this certainly goes against the grain of that false belief, but I assure you it is QUITE Biblical - I have even demonstrated it is Biblical.

    Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

    So here we see that grace is different from condemnation (it is NOT as by the one that sinned). We see that "judgement" (death) came into the world condemning all, but the free gift is of "many offenses". If Adam's sin (rather than the judgement for that sin) was inherited, then only ONE OFFENSE would need to have grace applied to save man - Adam's offense. But since the Bible clearly indicates that EACH MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HIS OWN SIN, it says "many offenses."

    Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    Here we see definitively that each man's righteousness or wickedness is upon himself, and is NOT PASSED.

    Especially if Adam is being viewed this way. Hermeneutically, the language suggests unequivocally that death is what is passed. It also suggests that the guilt associated with the death within us is individual in that it says "all have sinned" and it says "many offenses" rather than saying "for Adam's sin" and "for one offense."

    The death we are born with is a direct result of sin - Adam's sin. The CURSE was pronounced on the world and continues to this day! But it is NOT an individual judgment because Hebrews 9:27 says our individual judgement comes after we die. Therefore, the death that reigns in us is our inheritance from Adam - as Rom 5:12 states "death is passed" - and is NOT an individual judgement. You see each of us is JUDGED individually for our own sin after we die. So we see then that we suffer the consequence of Adam's judgement, but we are not guilty of Adam's sin because sin is not passed.

    Indeed death ENTERED THE WORLD when Adam sinned because God immediately judged Adam for his sin. That judgement was global and the curse affects the entire universe (Rom 8:22). We are born into a world that is cursed with Adam's judgement, but this is not our individual judgement.

    Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    If what you imply is true - that sin is passed, but only through the father's genome, then women wouldn't die. It is a senseless argument. Mary was a virgin to show that God was the Father, not because Mary was sinless or couldn't pass her sinful genes on to Jesus.
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    The death of infants prove they cannot be separated!



    Absolutely wrong! The difference is not that it was "by the one" but rather the difference is that "one" (Adam) did something different than the other "one" (Christ)!

    Hence, the difference is NOT representation by ONE MAN but what that ONE MAN did in contrast to what the other ONE MAN did!


    That is precisely why dying infants are not condemned to hell because Christ paid for the "sin" (singular) of the world so that no man goes to hell based upon that one sin! However, it is that "sin" singular by ONE MAN which "MADE SINNERS" plural of many, sinners by nature manifested by practice for which they are held accountable.




    That is because "many offences" were the consequence of ONE MAN'S OFFENCE by which MANY WERE MADE SINNERS.

    Again, it is not by the fathers personal sins that "MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" but rather by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS. Hence, we are not held accountable for NON-REPRESENTATIVE actions of the fathers but rather by the REPRESENTATIVE offence of ONE MAN - Adam.



    Hermeneutically death passed because SINGULAR SIN entered the world by ONE MAN's offence and that ONE MAN is contextually presented as a REPRESENTATIVE MAN in that offence and thus "ALL HAVE SINNED" through that representative man! That is precisely what the immediate arguments in verse 13-14 prove and verse 15 declares and verses 16-19 spell out REPEATEDLY!

    Between Adam and Moses death reigned when there was no LAW TO VIOLATE by individuals living between Adam and Moses, hence the violation was by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS AND DEATH BY THE OFFENCE SINGULAR.

    Death reigned over those who did not sin like Adam - INTENTIONAL and WILLFUL as Paul spells out in 1 Tim. 2:12. Thus infants and mental incapacitated died! Why? Not due to their INDIVIDUAL SINS but by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE many were made sinners and death by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE!


    HALF TRUTH! What you are denying is that ADAM acted in a REPRESENTATIVE capacity for mankind BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE and thus REPRESENTATIVELY that offence "MANY WERE MADE SINNERS."




    Do you know any women who don't have physical fathers??????? That is why women die.
     
  16. lakeside

    lakeside
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    Why do you people try and make it so complicated, God explains it all in his Word.God told Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:1-24 that because of their sin they would have to work for a living, be at war with nature, suffer pain and sickness, and eventually die. Paul explains original sin in great detail in Romans 5:12-19 and in 1 Corinthians 15:21-22.
     
  17. Gup20

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    They must be separated else our body and spirit could not be separated. We inherit death from Adam. When we die, if we have committed sin, we are judged for that sin (the judgement comes AFTER death). If the death we die was a reaction to our own sin, that would mean we would be judged for our own sin BEFORE we died. But scripture says "it is appointed unto men once to die and AFTER THIS the judgement."

    Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    You are very wrong here. Clearly the difference between them is in Adam there was one sin leading to condemnation, and in Christ the free gift is of many sins to justification.

    This is one of the most anti-Biblical statements you've ever made. Let me ask you - by which covenant was Adam's sin forgiven? Was it by the covenant of Faith or by following The Law? Which saved Adam?

    And if Adam's sin was forgiven, then it destroys the ENTIRE BASIS for the concept of original sin. If sin is inherited because of Adam's sin, then forgiving that one sin would justify everyone who inherited that sin. This means that no one would be born a sinner anymore. No one would be a "sinner from their mother's womb" (as you claim) You have just undone your entire theological position.

    BTW - I do believe that infants are not condemned to hell. But this is because sin is not imputed when there is no law, and until a person is mature enough to understand the law, I don't believe God imputes their sin to them... just as he didn't impute the sin of everyone between Adam and Moses. But just like infants, they were still born under the curse, and still experienced death because that was passed to them from Adam.

    Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

    Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead.
    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    Adam is the father of us all. He cannot pass his sin to his offspring, but only the consequence for that sin (death).

    Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    I'm glad to see you have come around to my way of thinking - that death is passed. I agree, death is passed. I also agree it is because of Adam's one sin that death is passed. God would have had to lift the curse after Adam's death, but there is no record of him doing such a thing, therefore the curse remains. So by the one man, sin entered the world, and death entered the world in reaction to that sin. Since then, death has remained and reigns over all. It is passed to all of Adam's children.

    Verse 13 and 14 say that those between Adam and Moses (Moses gave The Law) died though sin was not imputed to them. This means the death within them was NOT a reaction (judgement) to sin, but it was passed to them because of Adam. This means that the death within them was not a judgement for sin. Because those mentioned in verses 13 and 14 of Romans 5 were not being imputed sin (meaning their was no sin judgement for them) but they died anyway. The only way this is possible is if death is passed, irrespective of sin.

    It says death reigned. What you have described is "sin reigned." God didn't curse the world with sin. God cursed the world with death, and death has been a constant in the universe ever since. That is what it means to say "death is passed" rather than saying "sin is passed."

    If sin is passed, then the death within infants and mentally incapacitated is justified and they will spend eternity in hell. You see if you inherit sin, then individual judgement of death for the sin you have inherited is justified. But if you inherit death, you can be individually justified... but a split has occurred - your body is dead because of Adam's sin but your spirit is alive because you were justified.

    It is that split that is necessary for us to be saved by grace through faith. This is why the covenant of faith was instituted 430 years before The Law. Cause people were dying in spite of not being imputed sin.

    I don't deny the representative nature of Adam's sin. I deny that the sin of Adam was passed to future generations. The Bible clearly indicates that it was the judgement for Adam's sin - death - that was passed on to future generations, not the sin itself. As I said, God cursed creation with death, not sin. Sin was the action, death was the reaction. Sin was the cause; death was the result. We all live with the result. We all inherit the result. If we all inherited the cause, then each would have to be individually judged to experience the result. But Adam's result resulted to all.

    Chapter and verse?

    We all die because we inherit death from Adam. Even Jesus inherited death from Adam. But Christ didn't deserve that death, so justice demanded resurrection. You can't have resurrection if sin is passed. But even those who died in sin will be resurrected for judgement (Acts 24:15).
     
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: You are thinking Gup. One question, When you say "I do not believe God imputes their sin to them,... " this appear to me a problem. To impute sin is not to give them sin, but rather to judge one as having sinned. If infants are sinners, God has to 'impute' sin to their charge. Sin is blameworthy. Sin always requires God's condemnation. When God says that sin is not imputed where there is no law, sin in reality does not exist.

    Sin is a moral issue and there are some things that must exist for it to be a moral issue. One must have light and the ability to do something other than what they do for sin to be charged to ones account. No knowledge? No sin. No ability to choose? No sin. The law requires and mandates that in order for sin to be charged against someone, one must first have intrinsic knowledge of the commandment apart from rewards or punishments, and have the necessary abilities to do something other than what they do under the same set of circumstances.

    Infants and small children indeed can have a proclivity to sin, or an inclination to sin, but sin is not conceived until the conditions are met mentioned above. Listen carefully to James when sin is conceived.
    Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

    Certainly these steps towards sin are not carried out by infants from birth.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Spiritual death and physical death cannot be distinguished from each other but cannot be seperated from each other as the former is the cause and the latter is the effect. Infants suffer physical death because they are by nature spiritually separated from God. However, I do not believe they go to hell because their separation from God was due to Representative sin without any individualized act of their will and so their salvation is by Representative work of Christ without any individualized act of their will. Where sin abounded grace did much more abound.

    We inherited death because we inherited a sinful nature. This is clearly seen in the fact that new birth is the renewal of the MORAL image of God in fallen man. Infants coming into this world are without the MORAL image of God. Hence, they are SINFUL by nature and their sins simply manifested it.

    Christ paid the for the "sin" of the world and that is why dying infants go to heaven and not hell and that is why sinners are only judged "according to their works" rather than judged for Adam's representative offence.



    Both men acted as representatives for "many" and so there is no difference between Adam and Christ in regard to acting in a representative capacity. The difference is the contrast in how they represented many.



    It is totally antibiblical for you to reject what I said.


    I don't see your point! Adam and all he represented by his "OFFENCE" fell into sin by breaking the Genesis 2:16 law. After he failed in his representative capacity in the garden, he no longer acted as representative of anyone but was inclusive with all he represented by his "OFFENCE." Salvation was obtained by Adam after his fall as it is obtained by any of his posterity and that is through the representative Second Adam and His work.

    You simply fail to understand that his representative capacity did not continue after his fall into sin. Think rationally! How can a FALLEN Adam continue to represent anyone??? Hence, Adam was not forgiven in his REPRESENTATIVE capacity but in his individual fallen capacity.



    Acts 17:26 has no bearing on your point! He does not have to pass his sin to his offspring because his offspring were present when he sinned as the whole human nature sinned when Adam sinned and thus "all men have sinned" and by ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS by nature!



    Don't get excited because by death passing to all men I am defining it is SPIRITUAL DEATH and this can be easily proven. Only Adam was made in the MORAL image of God. When he sinned he no longer was LIKE God morally. The MORAL image of God is restored to mankind only through new birth (Col. 3:10; 2 Cor. 3;18). Infants do not possess the "MORAL" likeness of God but demonstrate self-centered, selfish characteristics from birth.



    SPIRITUAL death reigned and where there is SPIRITUAL death sin always makes itself manifest by SINS. We do not sin in order to obtain a sin nature but we sin because we are sinners by nature "BY ONE MAN'S OFFENCE MANY WERE MADE SINNERS" by nature and by practice.



    When Adam sinned Adam died immediately in spirit and ultimately in body. Infants have no MORAL image of God and therefore are spiritually dead and that is precisely why no one must teach children to do evil because they were born with an evil nature that makes itself manifest.


    His sin is not passed down because ALL HUMAN NATURE acted in Adam when Adam sinned - hence "all men have sinned." What is passed down is the just consequence for ALL HAVINNG SINNED IN ADAM and that is ALL HAVING THE SAME CONSEQUENCES passed down - SPIRITUAL DEATH which is inclusive of moral evil and physical and eternal death.

    If you can find any woman that does not have a physical father in or outside of the scriptures then just produce the evidence!

    We all die because we have all sinned IN ADAM and death of infants prove we ALL SINNED in Adam.
     
  20. Gup20

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    I agree with you. My understanding of ellogeō (imputes) is that it is the idea of laying someone's sin to their charge. In other words, it is counting their sin against them. For example, in an infant, they may be disobedient to their parents, but until they are old enough to understand what obedience is, I don't think God counts this against them.
     

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