Defence of Position

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by davidpace, Jun 10, 2003.

  1. davidpace

    davidpace
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    I have thought very long and hard about what I should say. Please everyone consider what I am saying, and listen to me as I am very sincere in what I am saying.

    My name is David Pace,Jr., and I was saved in October, 1996. I was called to preach in May of 2001, and currently work with my church. I have used the name Arkbuilder on this forum, but have now chosen to use my own name to post. (I would have posted sooner, but I was just approved today.)I am volunteering for Crusade Radio, simply because I believe that internet radio is the future for Biblical preaching and teaching. I'm not sure how long the big media stations will allow preaching, and I see Crusade Radio as a new tool for pastors and preachers. I came here a few weeks ago to let the members know about this new station, and also about my Pastor's daily program. My Pastor deals with prayer, the family, current issues and how these topics effect the children of God. Immediately, my Pastor was ridiculed for his stands on homosexuality and taking stands in his community. He was called, and I quote "a wolf in sheep's clothing". This troubled me for a few reasons.

    1) The lady that called my Pastor this has never met my Pastor, spoke with my Pastor, or spoke with a member of Heritage Baptist Church. She immediately condemned him for an article that was posted on the internet.

    2) The article in question was posted by a homosexual on the Baptist Watch Message Board that absolutely hates my Pastor and any Christian that stands against homosexuality. The article was written in 1998, and I strongly believe that we are seeing these things come into act in these last days.

    3) Other members said that Pastor Otwell was only interested in having his name in the headlines, and once he was out of the headlines, he fled. Well, according to the News Media, this is true. Of course the News Media also claim that we stockpile weapons, sacrifice cows, each have more than one wife, all change our last names to Otwell, and that our children are involved in sexual acts that I would never even speak about on a Christian forum. Obviously, this is not true. We are God-fearing, Bible-believing Christians, that are very involved with our families, our church, and our community.

    This is where I am having to phrase my words carefully. Dr. Bob Griffin is a Pastor, and I believe that it is wrong to show any type of disrespect towards a man of God. I do not want to show any type of disrespect towards him. I believe the best way to handle this is to ask him some questions.

    1) Why do you say that what I did was "BAD"? If I did something that was against forum policy, I will apologize on any area of the forum that you would like. It was not my intention to cause a problem on this forum, and I will apologize if I have gone against a forum policy.

    2)Why, in your words, did you call us "an almost cultish group"? Have you ever met us? Have you ever spoken with Pastor Otwell? Have you ever visited our church?

    3) You said, and I quote "I visited this site and read the very hateful (imho) material that was being propagated as a "sermon"."

    With your permission I would like to show the forum exactly what kind of material that my Pastor is promoting on our church website. Heritage Baptist Church Website

    4) You also said, and I quote "I did not call this group a "cult", but used the term "cultish" in that they espouse a very extreme position."

    I agree that you did not call us a cult, but you did refer to us as being "cultish" and having a "very extreme position". What has my Pastor or my church said or done that would cause you to say that we are "cultish" or that we have a "very extreme position"?

    5) You also said, and I quote "I do not know this group". If you do not know our group, then why do you say these things about us?

    6) You also said the following: "Arkbuilder has been treated as a "troll" and pretty much already ignored on the FFF for his vicious and vitriolic attack on "us" who are not worthy of being called fundamentalists!"

    Actually, it was the other way around. I was rebuked by a "prophetess", an "agnostic", and a few people that argue every post on the forum no matter who posts it. Seriously, though, once I explained myself, and defended myself, most of the members respect and agree with our beliefs.

    "Vicious and vitriolic attack on 'us'"?

    Once again, I don't mean to be disrespectful by any means, but this is simply not a true statement. I was attacked as soon as I posted. My pastor was attacked as soon as I posted. At no time was I "vicious or vitriolic", and it sincerely bothers me that you would say that I was. I did defend myself, and I told the forum that I did not agree with them disrespecting a man of God by saying "Bless His Pointed Head", and calling him other horrible names.

    One of the members here said the following, and I quote, "I first became acquainted with Bro. Otwell while at this church. He moves from one battle to another. Otwell has not ever remained in any one place long enough to have any kind of an effective ministry."

    He has been the Pastor of Heritage Baptist Church since 1991. He was in Fort Worth from 1983 - 1991. 2 moves in 20 years is is not moving around a lot to me. Is it to you?

    This member also says, and I quote "First it was his boy's home. He says he was called by God to have a home to help boys. He refused to abide by the state law and was shut down by the authorities."

    If anyone would like to know the real story behind this, please email me. Out of respect for the forum, I will not post the link here.

    This member then said, and I quote "Then Otwell claims he was called by God to feed the hungry street people in Ft. Worth. After a long protracted battle, the state stopped opposing Otwell. After this battle was won, he suddenly was not called to feed the poor any longer. Otwell moved on the Mt. Enterprise."

    Pastor Otwell and the church were being harassed by officials for not having a permit to feed the homeless. Pastor Otwell never asked for donations and never asked for State funds. Out of my Pastor's and church's pockets, we cooked beans and cornbread along with oranges, apples, and bananas for the homeless, gave them gloves, jackets, blankets, shirts, pants, caps, socks, bed rolls, Bibles, and even gave some of these homeless people a place to sleep if they needed it. Still he was arrested along with his two sons, and was strip searched in front of his sons, and in front of women officers, even though he asked respectfully to be searched in a private area. The judge ruled in our favor, saying that the ordinance did not apply to churches, or benevolent organizations, but to commercial businesses only.

    The last quote from this member was "The last I heard, Otwell and his cronies are now called by God to oppose the homosexual agenda. He does this by protesting publically with such preachers as Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church in Kansas. This is the Pastor Phelps who operates a website called, "God Hates Fags." Check it Because he jumps around from one headline grabber to another it is difficult to know exactly what Otwell's real ministry is."

    This is not true. Yes, we do stand against the homosexual movement at some pro-homosexual rallies, including the Gay Pride Parade in Houston, TX each June. Houston is one of the largest Gay Pride Parades in the U.S., and we are 1 of only 2 churches that take a stand against this wickedness. We do not stand with Fred Phelps. On 1 or 2 occassions, they have been at the same places that we have stood at, but we did not plan this in advance.

    I do agree that this member doesn't know what our "real ministry is." He has never spoken to any of us, and does not know of my Pastor's heart. My Pastor is a very gracious man, and I have seen him give his last few dollars to help people that he doesn't even know. Of course, I know that many pastors do this same thing. However, if you were to spend one day with my Pastor, just one day, you would see that the accusations made against him are false and unjust.

    I have been honest with this board. I have no reason to lie to anyone. I await your response.

    [ June 10, 2003, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]
     
  2. Grasshopper

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    Some of us are familiar with Otwell from his days in Ft. Worth. Long before 1996.
     
  3. davidpace

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    I have known him much longer than this, and I assure you, the media has lied about him.
     
  4. KenH

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    Just curious, since there are far more heterosexual adulterers, adulteresses, and fornicators than their are homosexuals, why do you not have rallies and hold signs up protesting them? That group is a much larger problem for the morals of the United States than are homosexuals. If you are going to make a public display over morality, I would think you would be going after the bigger problem with the heterosexuals than the homosexuals.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    I answered David's opinion about his pastor and his ministry with my opinion.

    The only thing editted on this thread was the title, since he had violated a rule about using names in title threads.

    I have known about his pastor and church for many years and have no desire to be involved in this or any thread by him or his ilk.
     
  6. donnA

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    changed my mind

    [ June 11, 2003, 10:40 PM: Message edited by: katie Bond...007 ]
     
  7. USN2Pulpit

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    It's true that DP and his post was attacked pretty viciously on this board. Maybe some of our members know much more than I do about the preacher in question. That's why I stayed out of it. I guess it's better to remain silent and be thought of as a fool.

    I did wonder where that sermon link came from. Are you saying that your pastor did not write that, or do I misunderstand you?

    Listen David, I don't know you or your ministry, but I appreciate your well thought-out and worded response. Without knowing the ins and outs of your pastors ministry, I can believe you are at the very least being sincere.
     
  8. donnA

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    sorry, meant to click edit,a nd hit quote instead, didn't know it till I looked aftreward.
     
  9. arkbuilder

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    Dr. Bob, I understand your hatred for my pastor and church. You are a fundamentalist; we are fundamentalists. You serve Jesus Christ; we serve Jesus Christ.

    I have heard by many people that you are a sincere, and humble man. However, I have not seen this myself.

    I have sent you 2 emails. Neither have been answered.

    I have asked you questions on this forum, and you will not answer them. Well, other than by saying this, "I have known about his pastor and church for many years and have no desire to be involved in this or any thread by him or his ilk."

    Please explain how you know of my pastor, and why you think this. I'm sure that I'm not the only one here that is questioning your "opinion" in this matter.

    I am very serious about this. I came to this forum for one reason. The station I volunteer for is a Baptist "only" station that I believe is a great avenue for pastors like yourself. I did not come here to stir the pot. But for some reason, I can't get any answers other than "you're part of a cultish group", and "I have no desire to be involved with or in a thread by him or his ilk".

    Those are some pretty strong accusations pastor.

    (Sorry for using the name Arkbuilder. I'm on a different computer, and couldn't remember the password for "davidpace".)
     
  10. Jailminister

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    Dr Bob, DP has asked some good questions, why is it that you don't respond in kind. I found out over the years that when two sides disagree talking can clear things up, especially when it is centered around the Cross.
     
  11. davidpace

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    Thanks jailminister, but I honestly don't think I am going to get a response. For some reason, my questions are being dodged. I'm beginning to believe that Dr. Griffin doesn't know why he has his opinions. So far, I haven't been given a reason. Evidently, I can be called "vicious" and "cultish" by Dr. Griffin for no reason whatsoever, and Dr. Griffin doesn't have to explain why he even said this. I wonder if I would be allowed to have the same liberty if I accused Dr. Griffin of something similar.
     
  12. Sherrie

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    Gentlemen, you must surely know that every person is intitled to there own opinions of things. Regardless of what you know to be true or what another knows to be true. Opinions are just that, someones opinion. And truthfully we all have them.

    Clearly the person you wish to seek out, has no desires to discuss any of this with you. You have some very well thought out words. You declare you come through prayerful thoughts; and while you say you come in peace, you clearly show anger, rage, and represent more of hate than that of which you declared.

    Perhaps this is something this Pastor of your would like to speak with Dr. Bob in private about rather than here.

    Has your Pastor ever taught you about forgiveness? How true forgiveness is forgetting. I know when Jesus covered my sins with his blood, the slate was washed clean. it was remembered no more.

    If we can look around and see others as they are Jesus, or see them as Jesus would see them, how can we be ventful? How can we hold a grudge? How can we not love?

    I am sure you believe yourself to be on a mission, but what has it proven??????? Have you not spoiled the milk and honey the Lord has given you? things are no longer sweet to my taste just reading all this. And the smell stinks!

    You also falsly joined this board. You came here to do one thing only, and that was to attack. Oh sir, what example have you made? Where was the positive in Jesus walk here.

    Have we made ourselves so righteous, we cannot see our own wrongs????

    Who is without sin throw the first stone.

    I am going to pray for you. I am going to ask God to take you to a place where you can forgive and forget.

    For if you cannot forgive how do you expect God to forgive you?

    Sherrie
     
  13. KenH

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    You haven't answered my question earlier in this thread. Are you dodging?
     
  14. davidpace

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    Sherrie: It was not my intent to show anger, rage, or hatred, and I really don't believe that I have. I have no problem forgiving someone, but I can't even get an answer.

    My point is this. My Pastor was litterally flamed on this board. He was mocked, called names, and was even compared to so-called "cult leaders". On top of this, the moderator (who himself is a Fundamental Pastor) says things about my Pastor, but will not respond to me here, or privately via email. I have emailed him twice, and have yet to receive any type of response from him.

    Also, you say that I joined this board to attack. This is an untrue statement. I joined this board to let people know about Crusade Radio. Then "I" was attacked. I have not attacked anyone with any post I have made, but I have been personally attacked, along with my Pastor and church.

    I do agree with your question to me, and I in turn ask this forum the same question.

    "Where was the positive in Jesus walk here?"

    Exactly, Sherrie, where was it? I have been attacked. I seek no revenge. I simply seek an explanation. Is that asking too much?

    Ken H: Who said that we didn't? Our homosexual stance was brought up by the members here. We stand against abortion, petephiles (sp?), the feminist movement, ecumentalists, and other sins. My Pastor preaches against the sin of fornication, adultery, and others, and mentions them often on his radio broadcast.

    I am sorry that this board has had to read all of this. I want to see this misunderstanding taken care of. I don't want to see this continue on as it has. If an answer is not given to me after this post, I will drop the entire subject, and let God take care of it. I will just have to live with the fact that my Pastor, church, and myself were accused falsely without any explanation from the members that said these things. I will forgive those that have spoken out. My only concern is this. What will keep them from doing it again in the future if I am not given an explanation?

    P.S.
    Sherrie: I appreciate your prayer. I need it. Also, please pray for my wife. She is expecting our first baby, and she is having some problems with kidney stones. She has had "gravel" on and off for the last 45 days. Thanks.
     
  15. RomOne16

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    You say that you are a Fundamental Baptist. As such, you can surely understand the concept of seperation.

    Dr. Bob has chosen not to engage you or anyone from your group in discussion or debate, publicly and apparently privately. He stated as much in his post to this thread.

    Get a clue, and respect the mans wishes.

    By the way, your first posts to this board were what people on the internet call spam. Spam isn't well received, as you found out. Your intentions may have been good, but you went about it the wrong way, even violating BaptistBoard rules by cross posting the spam on several different forums.

    If you are here to truly participate, then welcome to the BB.

    I'll say a prayer for your wife. I have had kidney stones before. They are awful.

    In Christ,

    Laura [​IMG]
     
  16. davidpace

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    Laura: Well I guess Dr. Bob is exercising Romans 16:17. I wish it didn't happen, but oh well. I'm through with this subject. Thanks for praying for my wife.
     
  17. NarrowWay

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    davidpace

    Sometimes some people just need to be ignored. Examine yourself and your pastor. If you are living according to the Master's example you're in a good place. Why do you need Dr. Bob's acceptance? The acceptance of Jesus Christ is fully sufficient.
     
  18. Sherrie

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    David

    We must learn that if God is continuing to forgive mankind, and wash our slates clean, then we must too. Remember 70 x 7. We cannot say I will forgive you, and then add a "but" in there. Jesus never said I will forgive you, your sins, and then say, I will wash them away "but" I will keep throwing them up.

    When we forgive, no matter how small or large the hurt, we must forgive and forget. All in one instance. To start any healing process we have to.

    For as long as you hold this against a man, you cannot partake in The Lords Supper. For this is not what the Lord would have you to do.

    You know, many people said many things about Jesus. Yet; on the cross, Jesus says:

    Luk 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

    Is it important that you raise such an issue here, or anywhere about this? In this thread, how many souls were saved? And how many were turned away by the bitterness of one man.

    You know, where was your Pastor? Was he feeding the Lords sheep?

    Jesus says to Peter:

    Joh 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
    :18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

    Now, David what Sheep were fed with this thread? What good came from it?

    I will pray for you and your wife and your unborn child.

    But truly nothing good has come of this thread.

    Also David, But you broke the baptistboard rules by posting under two different names.

    God Bless
    Sherrie
     
  19. Sherrie

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    Look at this David...this is every post you made. No one attacked you on this board. You came here and you attacked. And even tho you did, you were still allowed to procede. Very kind of the Moderators and the Administrators...Oh didn't we say...that is one of Dr. Bob's jobs here. I personaly grow tired of this...grow up....let your walk with God be a mature one.

    Also look...you posted under 2 different names. How honest was that?

    Sherrie
     
  20. davidpace

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    Sherrie: This was my post.

    "I am sorry that this board has had to read all of this. I want to see this misunderstanding taken care of. I don't want to see this continue on as it has. If an answer is not given to me after this post, I will drop the entire subject, and let God take care of it. I will just have to live with the fact that my Pastor, church, and myself were accused falsely without any explanation from the members that said these things. I will forgive those that have spoken out. My only concern is this. What will keep them from doing it again in the future if I am not given an explanation?"

    I believe that this post goes along with yours. I have no problem forgiving, and forgetting about the past. I'm just concerned about the future. There is no "but" in that. [​IMG]

    I agree that no one was "saved" through this post. However, sometimes you have to take a stand; no matter how popular or unpopular the stand is.

    I also apologized immediately for posting under the two names. I was hoping that everyone would forgive and forget it. ;) Just kidding. [​IMG]

    One thing I would like to add just for kicks and grins. I work very hard with my church. I strongly believe that my Pastor is a man of God. I follow his teachings, and have for many years. I believe that he is a Godly example for me and my family. I have seen God work more in my life and others since I have been a member of Heritage Baptist Church than any other time in my life. However, I also have a mind of my own. I study the Scriptures, and the Life and Walk of the Lord Jesus Christ while He was on the earth. If my Pastor ever did or taught anything that was against the Bible, I would speak to him, and then go from there. However, I would handle this situation with as much respect towards him as I could.
    (This is one of the problems that I have with the FFF. The members there are very disrespectful to Pastors and Evangelists just because they don't agree with them. That's another subject, though. [​IMG] )

    I do not think I will ever have to make this decision, but I would if I felt God wanted me in another place. In fact, I preached on this subject just yesterday. I was talking about how we get ourselves so involved with mortgages, car payments, credit card bills, and other things that we can't "GO" when God calls us.

    I mainly said this for Gina to read, because she had asked me. But maybe it will answer some questions from some others. [​IMG] God Bless.
     

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