Defending the trinity doctrine

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by evangelist6589, Mar 3, 2015.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    105
    First let me say to the critics that think sending letters and tracts to various apostate churches is a bad idea you are wrong as I have had plenty of responses. It's just you may not be called to evangelism/apologetics or this type of ministry.

    Anyways got a upcoming meeting with a apostate who denies the Trinity. I want to role play and pretend that I am an apostate and deny the Trinity so I want to hear your defense of the Trinity. I am not meeting to talk about homosexuality and believe me the apostate is wrong in this area as well, but the more serious is his view of the Trinity. So let's hear your defense of the Trinity. Apostate thinks the book of Acts defense his view of no Trinity for starters. How do you respond?
     
  2. blessedwife318

    blessedwife318
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,873
    Likes Received:
    326
    If you have to come to a message board to get help defending something you are not ready for a full on debate. It is not going to end well for you. But since I know you are going to go through with despite lots of good advice to the contrary I would recommend this book
    The Forgotton Trinity byJames White
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
  4. Greektim

    Greektim
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,143
    Likes Received:
    118
    If only it was a reliable passage to pin so much doctrine upon.
     
    #4 Greektim, Mar 3, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 3, 2015
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    There are three things that you must establish:

    1. There is but one true God

    2. The attributes that belong to God which distinguish him from creatures, you must show are applied equally to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

    3. The dual nature of Christ, His pre-incarnate nature which takes upon the incarnate human nature.
     
  6. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Is Jesus God?

    Many of the “proofs” from scripture prove that Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, claimed to exist before he was born of Mary, or claimed to be the only way to eternal life with the Father. But could not the “Angel of the Lord” the first and highest of all created beings, the one who came to earth in human form to reveal God to man, be Jesus. What are the proofs that demand acceptance of Jesus as co-equal with God the Father?

    Does Christ’s claim to be the Son of God demand that he is qualitatively the same type of being as God? Was not Adam the son of God? Yes, the Messiah is divine and is referred to as God (Ps. 45:6) but because David called the Judges “God” (Ps 58:1) we must be careful when making an inference based on one or two verses.

    And does not the concept of being the “son” mean that the father created the son, therefore potentially indicating Jesus is a “created” being?

    The first problem that must be confronted is the fact that if Jesus is God, and Yahweh is God, either we have two Gods or we must adopt an interpretation such as the Trinity. The alternative is to say that Jesus is a creation of God, and therefore is not God, just a sort of Angel of the Lord carrying the message of Salvation, and doing the work (sacrifice) of salvation as the Son of God, but we should worship Yahweh, the true God.

    Also the alternative requires that we nullify the personhood of the Holy Spirit as taught in verses like Romans 8:26-27, where the Holy Spirit Himself responds to prayer.

    Second question, is the term Yahweh the name of the Father or of the triune God or both? If there is only one God, and his name is YhWh, then God the Father’s name is YhWh. If YhWh is the name above all names (Nehemiah 9:5) and Jesus’ name is above all names (Philippians 2:9), then either Jesus’ name is YhWh or one of YhWh’s names is Jesus or both. Note we do not have two names above all names. If the Father and the Son both are named YhWh, then we have one God (YhWh) in two persons, Father and Son.

    If the Holy Spirit is a person and also God, and we have only one God, then the Holy Spirit is YhWh. So we have a trinity (Matthew 28:19). Note we do not have three Gods, we have one God that is Spirit and cannot be seen. But He can manifest Himself in the person of the pre-incarnate Word that can be seen (as a burning bush or as the Lord walking in the cool of the day).

    But our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper that listens to our prayers and helps communicate them. The bible portrays each of these "persons" as independently communicating among themselves, expressing will, intellect and and emotion. Hence, the three Persons of our One God. They are the messengers of God in the physical universe. In the garden, did Logos manifest God modeled on relating to God as to a perfect and all powerful Father? I think so. Did the Spirit of Christ inspire men (Patriarchs, Prophets, Judges, and Kings)? Again, yes! Did Logos (the Word) manifest God as a created Man, the Lamb of God in the New Testament? Yes!

    But hang on, it now gets complicated. Jesus is God and Jesus is man. The Jesus is God part existed before Jesus was born of Mary. Because His person (Logos/Word) communicates with mankind, He may have been the “Lord” walking and talking with Adam in the Garden. He may have been the Angel (Messenger) of the Lord mentioned several times in the OT (Judges 6:11-23). Note that the Angel sometimes talks as if bringing a message from God (as Jesus the man did) and sometimes talks as if He is God (as Jesus our God did.) So we have a pre-incarnate duality (Yahweh the Son being the messenger of Yahweh the Father, and Yahweh the Son speaking as Yahweh, the Lord God Almighty) and an incarnate duality (Jesus as man and as God). But with these three positions or rules of interpretation the various verses that seem to conflict all fit together.

    Other interpretations are possible, but they either do not address all of the verses in the Bible concerning the issue, or they require even more labored rules of interpretation.
    Verses like Colossians 1:15 could indicate that Jesus was created. But I think it is clear that “first born” means Jesus was the first born from the dead, who occupies the first place in the new creation which includes all the new creatures in Christ.

    Is Jesus God? Here are some of the verses that prove that Jesus is God.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. (John 1:1-3) A created “Angel of the Lord” would not be the creator. This can be sidestepped by saying God created Jesus, and then Jesus created with God’s help, everything else, but the interpretation is absurd. First you have to change “the Word was God” to mean something else and you have to say the opposite of “nothing came into being” by saying Jesus came into being (Col. 1:16-17).

    “…I am the First and I am the Last, there is no God besides Me. Isa. 44:6. “… Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. Rev. 1:17 I think it is inescapable that scripture is teaching that God and Jesus are the First and the Last, and therefore Jesus cannot be “apart” (a created being) from God. He must be, instead, a part of God -The Son! - “who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped.” Phil. 2:6. This verse proves that Jesus is co-equal with God (the Father) and took the role of a created being. This verse nullifies the argument that the position of Jesus in the Trinity (the Son) suggests that He was created by the Father. It also says that the pre-incarnate Jesus is qualitatively the same type of being as God.

    In summary, Jesus is God. We should trust Him, worship Him, give thanks to Him and glorify his Name. There are at least another dozen sets of verses that credit Yahweh and Jesus with the same name, attribute or action. Jesus is God.
     
  7. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    105
    Dont I wish. Besides its only in the KJV/NKJV.
     
  8. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    105
    Thanks. I thought I did establish this in my letter to him, but perhaps not. Regardless our chat I will need to refresh my knowledge on this topic.

     
  9. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    105
    My upcoming discussion will be on the trinity not on Jesus specifically.


     
  10. PreachTony

    PreachTony
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    0
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but is this not modalism?
     
  11. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    Yes it is.
     
  12. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    That may not have been Van's intent, but the language he uses is the language of modalism.

    To say the One true God may be manifested one way at one time and another way at another time is modalism, which is a repudiation of the doctrine of the Trinity.

    God IS three persons at ALL TIMES, each Person coexistent and coeternal with the other Two Persons. "Person" defined as a distinct individual seat of self-consciousness.
     
  13. nodak

    nodak
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2008
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    15
    No, it isn't strictly modalism.

    Bear in mind that Baptists have walked a middle ground. Modalists would say God has manifested Himself in at least 3 ways. Most of them say He cannot manifest Himself in two or three ways at the same time. Some but not all deny the deity of Christ.

    On the other hand, there is tri-theism. This is dangerous ground that many reformed are treading with the doctrine of eternal submission of the Son. It so splits God into three persons that you actually have 3 separate Gods.

    Remember from the OT the prime thing to remember and believe? There is only ONE God.

    There still is ONLY one God. He is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit but they are ONLY one God. That is exactly why the Jews got all het up and accused Jesus of blasphemy. They knew He was, by using the I AM statements, forgiving sin, etc, saying He was GOD. Not A God, but GOD.

    Even His name, Yeshua, means Yahweh saves or Yahweh Who saves. To see Jesus is to see the Father. Bible speaks of the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Christ.

    Hard to get our heads around, but the two ditches to avoid are true modalism and tritheism, which is gaining ground.

    There is only one God. Trinitarians do not believe in 3 Gods.
     
  14. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    Modalism states there is only One God who is not three co-equal, co-eternal Personages, but manifests himself at different times as Father, Son and Holy Spirit

    Tri-theism states there are three gods, not one God in three persons. Jesus claimed to be God, but He did not claim to be all that God is as John 1:1 makes that distinction that the "Word was WITH God".

    So to say, that God manifested himself in different ways is modalism. God did not manifest himself in different ways, but God always EXISTS in three co-equal, co-eternal different Personages.
     
    #14 The Biblicist, Mar 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2015
  15. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    You are entirely wrong!

    All three Persons of the Trinity are eternal, they are not simply a mode or form of display.

    Where apparently, to be kind, both Annsni and you got lost in your ignorance, is that the Second Person of the Trinity has manifested Himself in a number of different ways in Scripture. As a burning bush, as the Angel of the Lord, and of course, as Jesus of Nazareth. But the Second Person is not a mode of display but as with the other two, a distinct eternal Person.

    People like Annsni who make false charges of heresy against others seem to be untethered from reality.
     
    #15 Van, Mar 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2015
  16. Van

    Van
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    9,516
    Likes Received:
    49
    Not to put too fine a point on it, but to deny the Trinity is to deny Jesus is God. There are two bogus views that oppose the Trinity Doctrine (One God in Three Persons, Eternal Trinity.) One bogus view is Jesus is not God, but a created being, and the other bogus view tries to say the Holy Spirit is a force and not a Person.
     
  17. annsni

    annsni
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2006
    Messages:
    20,198
    Likes Received:
    376
    LOL - Quite funny but let's look again at what was quoted:

     
  18. PreachTony

    PreachTony
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2014
    Messages:
    1,910
    Likes Received:
    0
    Completely agree. I read it as a modalistic statement, Van. That's all.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207

    Your overall explanation demonstrates you are not a believer in modalism. However, your wording when you say:

    But our Spirit God can also manifest Himself as our Helper that listens to our prayers and helps communicate them.


    There is no "can" here. The Spirit of God always exists in that capacity rather than one who merely "can" manifest himself in that capacity.

    However, your overall context shows you are clearly not a believer in modalism but a believer in the Trinity.

    In your defense, it is extremely difficult to convey a properly worded explanation of the Trinity without messing up at some minor points.
     
    #19 The Biblicist, Mar 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2015
  20. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    8,369
    Likes Received:
    105

    Did you read my post? I am not discussing Christ alone but the trinity doctrine. I have books on all persons of the Trinity and also on the Trinity directly.
     

Share This Page

Loading...