Defending the truth against the primary so called "proof texts" against Calvinism

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Osage Bluestem, Feb 16, 2011.

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  1. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
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    Link: http://www.objectivegospel.org/reformed/BigThree.shtml
     
  2. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Spurgeon, on the shenanigans some Calvinism enthusiasts undertake when the pesky Scriptures just don't line up with their "grand theory":

    [I Tim. 2:4]

    "What then? Shall we try to put another meaning into the text than that which it fairly bears? I trow not. You must, most of you, be acquainted with the general method in which our older Calvinistic friends deal with this text. "All men," say they, —"that is, some men": as if the Holy Ghost could not have said "some men" if he had meant some men. "All men," say they; "that is, some of all sorts of men": as if the Lord could not have said "all sorts of men" if he had meant that. The Holy Ghost by the apostle has written "all men," and unquestionably he means all men. I know how to get rid of the force of the "alls" according to that critical method which some time ago was very current, but I do not see how it can be applied here with due regard to truth. I was reading just now the exposition of a very able doctor who explains the text so as to explain it away; he applies grammatical gunpowder to it, and explodes it by way of expounding it. I thought when I read his exposition that it would have been a very capital comment upon the text if it had read, "Who will not have all men to be saved, nor come to a knowledge of the truth." Had such been the inspired language every remark of the learned doctor would have been exactly in keeping, but as it happens to say, "Who will have all men to be saved," his observations are more than a little out of place. My love of consistency with my own doctrinal views is not great enough to allow me knowingly to alter a single text of Scripture. I have great respect for orthodoxy, but my reverence for inspiration is far greater. I would sooner a hundred times over appear to be inconsistent with myself than be inconsistent with the word of God. I never thought it to be any very great crime to seem to be inconsistent with myself, for who am I that I should everlastingly be consistent? But I do think it a great crime to be so inconsistent with the word of God that I should want to lop away a bough or even a twig from so much as a single tree of the forest of Scripture. God forbid that I should cut or shape, even in the least degree, any divine expression. So runs the text, and so we must read it, "God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."" —"Salvation By Knowing the Truth"
     
  3. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
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    Here is what CH Spurgeon said about Calvinism in his work "A Defense of Calvinism"

    Link: http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?41
     
  4. Osage Bluestem

    Osage Bluestem
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    From the OP article:

     
  5. Jerome

    Jerome
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    More:

    "I admit that some called, Calvinists, are the most quarrelsome set breathing, this is the reason—while they have the main part of the Truth of God, many of them are leaving out something important—therefore God chastises them because they are some of His best children! It may be a sign of life that they are so eager after Truth that they kill one another in order to get it, but I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion. If they had more peace, I might hope better for the progress of Truth. Everyone says to me—“Look there at your Brothers and Sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life! I never saw a Church where they have the Gospel, where they are not always falling out!” Well, that is near the truth and I am ashamed to confess it." —Charles Spurgeon, "The God of Peace"
     
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Trust

    I don't think belief is the answer to start our walk, I think it starts off with trust. We trust in Christ first then we listen and learn from Him and He teaches what to believe.

    We can't believe in something we are not taught and we can not be taught until we trust in the one teaching.

    I see we come to Jesus just as we are sinners dead and He removes the veil from our eyes and leads us to life eternal.

    We following a crowd does not mean we are drawn by the Father.

    All could not come until Jesus was lifted up and they will not until they trust and listen and learn from Him

    We are predestined in Christ not apart from Him. It was believers He was talking about being predestined not those apart from Christ.

    God has the end result He doesn't need to look forward to know who they are.

    I will not believe that God randomly chose anyone, but chose those who trust in His Son and predestined ordained them to believe and be saved.

    To trust in the Lord is not work to God at all.

    Just trust in the Lord and God made a promise you will not be disappointed.
     
    #6 psalms109:31, Feb 16, 2011
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  7. Winman

    Winman
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    OB, if God is not willing that all men be saved, then how can you know he is willing that YOU should be saved?

    Chew on that awhile.
     
  8. Osage Bluestem

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    Everyone who has faith in Christ is saved.

    Romans 5:1
    1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
     
    #8 Osage Bluestem, Feb 16, 2011
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  9. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Will or desire

    God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth that is why He wants us to make peace with everyone. They didn't believe Paul back then about this, that is why He said I am not lying

    God will only save those who trust in His Son.What God wants is showing what desire we should have. In the end it will not be what He wants that will happen, but what He wills will happen.

    Mark 16:
    15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    It is not what He wants that He will get or He would of put wills there instead it is what He wills He will get.
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Feb 16, 2011
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  10. Winman

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    How can you have faith if you are not sure God wants YOU to be saved? That is what faith is, to be sure, to have confidence. I would find it impossible to have real faiith if I believed God only wants to save a few elect persons.

    So what makes you sure?
     
  11. Winman

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    How can you have faith if you are not sure God wants YOU to be saved? That is what faith is, to be sure, to have confidence. I would find it impossible to have real faiith if I believed God only wants to save a few elect persons.

    So what makes you sure? Did God come down and personally tell you that you were one of the few chosen elect?
     
  12. Jarthur001

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    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1621192&postcount=60

    Posted by Jerome….
    "We believe in the five great points commonly known as Calvinistic; but we do not regard those five points as being barbed shafts which we are to thrust between the ribs of our fellow-Christians." —Charles Spurgeon
     
  13. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Good stuff:thumbs:

    More from Spurgeon:

    "The Calvinism of some men is not the Calvinism of John Calvin, nor the Calvinism of the Puritans, much less the Christianity of God."
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    In context, we see just how clear Jerome misleads......

     
  15. Jerome

    Jerome
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    "Condemning other people, cutting off the saints of God right and left, is but poor virtue, and to have these blessed doctrines in the head while neglecting them in the heart is anything but a gracious sign." —Spurgeon, "Labour in Vain"

    "It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth." —Spurgeon, "Rivers of Water in a Dry Place"
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    in context this is CONDEMNING calvinist that have a faith in word but not action.

    In Context, this is talking about other believers.


     
    #16 Jarthur001, Feb 17, 2011
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  17. Osage Bluestem

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    What makes me sure is that I do have faith. Faith isn't possible for an unregenerate person. So since I do believe that Christ is who he said he is has done what he said he has done and will do what he says he will do, and I love and trust in him, I am certain.

    That's a principle reason that the Holy Spirit inspired John to write what he wrote.

    1 John 5:13
    I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
     
  18. Jerome

    Jerome
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    Spurgeon...
    He sure is:thumbs:

    Spurgeon...
    Exactly.
    More specifically he is referring to certain believers in the doctrines of grace.

    Spurgeon reproved the shenanigans, excesses, nastiness, etc. he saw among Calvinists.

    He refused to mangle Scripture to fit a grand theory.

     
    #18 Jerome, Feb 17, 2011
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  19. glfredrick

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    Where to you get the idea that there are only a "few" elect?

    Does the Bible number the elect that one might know?

    I would say that "whosoever will..." is the actual number of the elect. God, knowing and setting aside the elect before the Foundation of the Earth, made it possible for all the elect to come to Him, but they still have to!

    Also, is it SO easy to be able to turn your back on God -- for His simply BEING GOD, and deciding one's fate? Seems like perhaps you wish to instruct our God as to how He should conduct His business. Some others have tried that and have been found wanting when confronted with the truth and power of God.
     
  20. Osage Bluestem

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    It is good to reprove nastiness among a flock. However, there is nothing nasty about defending the truth against those who twist it. That defensive action is only perceived as "nasty" if someone doesn't like the truth.
     
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