Defining "the law" as used in New Testament

The lost person comes to Christ and is covered by His blood for forgiveness of sins, and is covered by Christ's righteous life -- not having a righteousness of his own. He is born-again. He is then at that point "the good tree".

err... umm.. yes!

That is why I keep saying that it does not help your argument to circle back to the case of the lost -- when speaking about the Bible doctrine on perseverance of the saints. "Not laying again the foundation" (Heb 6:1) and all.

In the Rom 2:11-16 discussion of "Who WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL judge all men" (Paul's words not mine) - the basis is the works -- the fruits of those trees. It will reveal that the tree was in fact changed to a good tree at the end -- or at the end was found to have reverted back to a bad tree. The righteous who then chose a path that lead to being "severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace".

Wrong. The Bible teaches justification past that changes the state of the soul from lost to saved (Rom 5:1).

Then the Bible has justification future Rom 2:11-16 that "reveals" the state of the one changed. Hint - looking at a tree does not change the tree.

Total nonsense.

No. The Bible has Christs' life and death justifying and forgiving the lost - AND producing the "new Creation" -- the New Covenant Gospel condition of the Law of God written on the heart. Then we have Christ demonstrating that the Gospel works in the context of the Daniel 7:9,10,22 courtroom -- before "myriads and myriads" when "the books are opened and the court sits" and then "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

The very thing you claim cannot happen.

Peter says "Judgment begins with the house of God"

Paul says "WE MUST ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ"

And in Romans 2 Paul insists that even the gentile Christians will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and "WILL BE JUSTIFIED" on the bases of deeds as seen in Romans 2:4-16

Wrong again.

The simple point that you pretend not to understand is - "looking at the tree does not change the tree".

This could not be any simpler and it comes right out of the text itself.

Pretending not to get this simple point is not helping your case. You are free to differ with my argument - but you need to at least be able to state what it is accurately.

Christ makes the New Tree - then Christ shows that HIS OWN rule "by their fruits you shall know them" actually works. Knowing the tree does not CHANGE a bad tree into a good tree.

The act of looking at the tree "results" does not change the trees. You want to "imagine" that by "looking at the trees" the good tree is reverted to being lost again and then tried to produce good fruit to convince the observers that it was good.

The point is far more direct than you want to admit.

Perhaps you just need some time with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Ok - now see. that was not so hard. We can agree on things - and that is one.

Indeed. Not only at the start - but all along the way. "He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it". Phil 1:6

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Nothing at all like "fail to persevere and will be justified anyway".

So also in chapter 2.

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Not if we are speaking about circling back to the context of the lost - the bad tree that needs to "be transformed" into the good tree.

However - not Laying again a foundation of repentance - we need to look at the doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" rather than "new birth of the lost"..

This is again - where we can agree.

My point exactly.

God is the one that calls that future judgment one of justification (Rom 2:11-16) - but it is one that is done in the Romans 2 and Daniel 7 context of an objective, verified judgment with books opened (by their fruits you shall know them Matt 7) and the courtroom of the "myriads and myriads" observing the results that then has "judgment passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 for "we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ". 2Cor 5:10.

And this is then the sobering message of Rev 14:7 "Fear God and give Glory to Him for the hour of His judgment has come".

in Christ,

Bob

 

It is only Calvinism that attributes the failure of man in a free will system - to God.

The Arminian context never blames God for Adam's failure, or for Lucifer's failure, or for the failure of those in Gal 5:4 "Severed FROM Christ, fallen FROM grace".

If you try to plug those Bible texts I provided into a Calvinist model - they do not work. First you have to dump calvinism.

Again - Cavlinism is the model that assumes that when man fails - it is God's fault.

The Arminian model views it more along the lines of Christ as we see in Matt 18 with the illustration of forgiveness revoked.

John 6 is speaking strictly of "Those who BELIEVE" John 6:40 and says nothing about "Those who used to believe and then fell away - saved anyway".

And when Christ speaks to "Shall lose nothing" He is speaking explicitly about the future - about the conclusion at the end "SHALL lose nothing" speaks to the final result.

Arminians never claim that God does not know the end result.

I do believe in perseverance of the saints in the form that the Bible states it.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved."

in Christ,

Bob

 

1. God is all knowing - and has known all events from eternity past - thus the Daniel 7:9-10 judgment is one where the courtroom is filled with "myriads and myriads" and the "books are opened" and then in Dan 7:22 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" as the last event - just before the Dan 7:23-27 second coming.

Wrong - you are taking the "either or" logical fallacy - I adopt the more correct "both-and" view which says that the lost consist BOTH of those never saved AND of those in Ezek 18 and Matt 18 where forgiveness is revoked and in Gal 5:4 where the saved are then "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace".

Wrong again. The conclusion is based on a direct reading of Bible texts that OSAS is only too anxious to completely avoid.

You need a better hill to die on than the one that is forced to deny the direct reading of the Bible at almost every turn.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Let us "read" the inconvenient texts to test your idea "sola scriptura".

8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

This is an agreement between God and man.

God is faithful - but God has also sovereignly chosen the free will model of "whosoever will" - therefore all the "warning" texts regarding perseverance are "real" and not fake, nor imaginary, nor pretend that OSAS promotion keeps imagining.

The New Covenant is the ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11) of all time.


8 For finding fault with them, He says, "" BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10 "" FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: [b]I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11 "" AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, "KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME[/b], FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12 "" FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.''

Paul has just shown the Jer 31:32 “New Covenant” to include the basic Gospel components

• Forgiveness of sin “I will remember their sins no more”
• Adoption by God – “I will be their God – they will be My people”
• The New Birth – the New Creation – with the Law of God written on the heart AND mind

God has provided the "whosoever will" system of free will and in that system He fulfills his promise -- but he does not "pith the brain of the frog" so that the frog follows like a robot - not able to make a choice after being saved.

Thus God provides the warning to the saved - warnings that OSAS has no room for at all. Warnings that OSAS must simply "explain away".

And when the warnings are admitted to - then the OSAS argument must charge God with failing

His part was never "I will take your free will away so that you cannot choose anything but what I make you choose".

Instead - His part included "warnings to the saved" and all those texts about "persevering firm until the end" are not "instructions to God telling God how to save people" they are "instructions to the saints".

A key point of failure for the OSAS argument.

in Christ,

Bob

 

On the contrary I repeatedly point to God's statement "I will draw ALL men unto Me" as the primary cause. John 12:32

I repeatedly point to John 16 "The Spirit convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and jugment".

I repeatedly point to John 1 "He is the light that coming into the World enlightens EVERY man" John 1:9

I repeatedly point to the Rev 3 fact "I stand at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in ".

I repeatedly point to God's First cause act in 1John 2:2" He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

I repeatedly point to God's first cause act in 1John 4:14 "the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"

Your problem is that you have bought into the flawed Calvinist tradition of "arbitrary selection" as if that was a "good thing" and so you are prone to ignore these "first cause texts" when I reference them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

John 6
35 Jesus said to them, "" I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 ""But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.

1. Obviously Jesus is not arguing that God is at fault for failing to cause them to "believe".

Again - Christ appeals to seeing and then believing. In this case coming to christ and also believing.

seeing Christ and the signs He performed called the people to choose whether to believe or not.

Christ does not say "I failed to pith your brain and still you do not believe" NOR does He say "I forcibly pithed your brain but still for some reason you are not believing" - these methods are not Christ’s - but Satan's.

Christ showed that HE was showing them the bread of life - just as He showed to the disciples but these listeners were refusing to choose - the work of God - to believe. Of course many of these same people would later become Christians in Acts 2 - for now they were stuck in unbelief.

John 6
35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which sees the Son, and believes on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

2. vs 40 emphasizes the inconvenient detail "he who BELIEVES" is saved. Not "he who no longer believes is saved".

3. - "you have seen me - so believe" for the model is "everyone who beholds the Son and believes.. Will have eternal life" – This is not a promise to “whosoever believeth not on me – though they used to believe at one time” as some OSAS revisionism imagines.

This text takes into context the foreknowledge of God “all that He has given Me – I should lose nothing” the reference is to the future results and the fact that God knows them.


No emphasis is placed on forcible brain pithing as in "every brain I pith will be forced to believe". All such methods are foreign to the chapter.

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him, because He said, ""I am the bread that came down out of heaven.''
42 They were saying, "" Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, " I have come down out of heaven'?''
43 Jesus answered and said to them, ""Do not grumble among yourselves.
44 ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

3. Here Jesus shows that no one CAN come to Him without the supernatural drawing of God.

But he does not say “all that are drawn WILL choose to come” nor does He say “All that are drawn WILL come and WILL believe”, nor does the text says “God will only draw SOME”. (Yet this is exactly the distinctive teaching of Calvinism).

The text says that no one CAN come to Christ without first being drawn by God.

John 12:32 "I will Draw ALL"

But it is not "ALL" that choose to accept eternal life -- as it turns out.


Thus vs 40 is correct to emphasize the inconvenient detail "he who BELIEVES" is saved. Not "he who no longer believes is saved".

The point is easy to see.

My response is to point to the sections of the text that your remarks ignored - the "inconvenient details" that do not fit the arbitrary selection model and that do not fit salvation "of unbelievers" - in the case of those who did believe but then fell away.

I do that each time by showing the detail that your exegesis glossed over and emphasizing it in my comments on the same.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As for John 12 - I have pointed to the detail you avoided - before -

John 12
25 "" He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it to life eternal.
26 ""If anyone serves Me, he must follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also; if anyone serves Me, the Father will honor him.


This is the “all” the “unqualified all” scope of John 12. Christ deals with all mankind in vs 25-26 – both the lost and the saved.

Christ does not say “only some of each nationality who love their life will lose it”. Christ does not say “only some of each nationality who discount their life in this world will keep it”. Christ does not say “for some of you – serving Me will mean following Me – for WHERE I am there a few of my servants will be also”. Christ does not say “The Father will honor some of those who serve Me”. Nor does He say “some of you will be allowed to choose to Serve Me”.

(For an example of Christ arguing for “SOME” see His message about being celibate. Matt 19:11)


27 "" Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, " Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 "" Father, glorify Your name.'' Then a voice came out of heaven: ""I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.''
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "" An angel has spoken to Him.''


30 Jesus answered and said, "" This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 "" Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 ""And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.''

Christ is not using a slippery marketing tactic to make it “Appear” that He is more generous than He really is. He does not say “I draw at least one of every KIND of human”. Yet for some this is what they want Christ to be saying here.

The Jews were using a Calvinist model of “God only cares for the few”, God only cares for “some” – namely the Jews. In the same way Calvinism imagines that God only cares for the arbitrarily selected “few” of Matt 7. Jesus here debunks the Jewish form of the Calvinist “arbitrary selection” by telling the Jews that these Greeks illustrate the point that God draws ALL – even non-Jews. He does not make the Calvinist argument of “God draws two from among the gentiles” thus getting in “both kinds” or “samples from both groups”.

Rather the statement is framed in a way that fits the Arminian model perfectly. It must be “edited” to make it Calvinist.

 

I pointed to the details in Heb 8 and Jer 31 where God makes the covenant so that it is between God and Israel.

Thus Israel can choose to reject or accept.

Jeremiah is the one writing - and it is in Jeremiah's text that God specifically says that all of His promises are "conditional".

Your eisegeting the idea of "no free will" into the word "cause" shows a disregard for the context in chapter 18 for Jeremiah's writing as found in chapter 31.

Jeremiah 18

6"Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?" declares the LORD. "Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel.
7"At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;
8 IF that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it.
9"Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;
10 IF it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it.

1. In the Bible there is no such thing as "unwilling obedience" - except among the wicked at the end of time forced to acknowledge God's justice.

2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".

3. I have already shown the "God as first cause" texts in the Bible where the "Goodness of God leads you to repentance" but does not delete your free will nor cause you to repent and then later you choose to repent.

At no point does Phil 2 even say that God chose repentance for them.

Paul says "it is no longer I who live - but Christ that lives in me" - Gal 2:20 - and also says "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.

The Calvinist trick of trying to make God the robot-controller of Paul fails here because it would mean that Paul is buffeting his body for fear that God might forget to cause him not to be disqualified.

You had not a single text in that list saying "God made them willing" yet you tossed them around as if you did.



You reverse the stated cause and effect order in these texts and must to defend your errors.

You simply reject the cause and affect order given in the scriptures because it does not suit your man made theology.

Romans 10 "With the heart man believes resulting in " what?

in Christ,

Bob

 

I am using Jeremiah 18 as context for Jeremiah 31:33-34 (the New Covenant quoted in Heb 8. Same author, same book, context in prior text leading into Jer 31.

If you have a problem with that being exegesis - I suggest that your problem is with the concept itself. (Which might explain a lot - come to think of it)

While it is true that Ezek 36 speaks of a future that now is only possible in the New Earth - and applies to the entire church as Israel, it is not true that the New Covenant of Jer 31 and also cited in Heb 8 is "not individual" as if people were saved in "sets" or by nations -- salvation is individual as we saw on John 12.

Jonah gives the same "I will" message to Ninevah - but the conditional nature of prophecy was demonstrated - nonetheless.

Prior to the New Birth comes the convicting of the Holy Spirit (John 16) where the Spirit convicts "The WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

It is only those who are "IN Christ" (2Cor 5) that are "new creation".

Those who are lost -- are "drawn to Christ" John 12:32.
Those who are lost are convicted of sin (John 16).

And they must CHOOSE to open the door - as John stated in Rev 3:20 "I stand AT THE DOOR and knock...If anyone hears my voice and OPENS the door - I will come in".

The lost sinner does not suddenly find himself born again and then as a born-again saint "choose" to be a saint or choose to follow Christ since that is already what he is.

Rather "with the heart" the lost "believes" resulting in righteousness, with the mouth they confess "resulting in salvation" Rom 10:10.

There is agreement that the new birth comes before the sanctified life - but prior to the new birth - there is conviction of sin and the choice to "open the door".

He "came unto His own and His own received Him not" John 1 is a choice made prior to the New Birth and so also "But to as many as RECEIVED him did He give the right to be called the sons of God" John 1 - a choice made prior to the New Birth.


2. In the Bible there is no such thing as "obey and then choose to obey".

True in a sense - but not to the extreme of "first given a new heart then choose to open the door and let Christ into your life".

Which is the extreme of Calvinism.

BTW - I will admit to this - the Calvinist model (5 point) is the only logical model that would allow for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob