Definitions

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Sularis, Apr 14, 2003.

  1. Sularis

    Sularis
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    In order to finish up my presentation in defense
    of "Free Will" or simply put - Anti-Calvinism as i promised npet months ago - we need to have some similar terms

    First of all sin

    I define sin as a personal act or lack of action which causes the person to be against or in rebellion to the Will, Word, and Person of God

    Free Will - the ability to make a choice unaffected by ANY bias or prejudice

    Sin Nature - The set of personality traits which causes man to prefer or tend to sin. While this is a lack of perfection in man - it is not sin - since sin is actually something done or not done directly against God
     
  2. Frogman

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    Because you recognize the sin nature in man, that is according to your definition that this is the 'set of personality traits which causes man to prefer or tend to sin.' Then your definition of free-will does not stand, this cannot exist, the preference or tendency in man to sin creates a prejudiced, or biased choice. Thus you find your notion of free-will is not 'unaffected.'

    Sin must come forth from itself. James 1.14; originally this tendency was absent in man. After the fall, (in fact the whole purpose of Satan was to introduce Sin into the creation of man in order that the nature of man would possess this source of 'rebellion' against God.), we find that man is born with this nature and cannot escape it by choice because his supposed free-will is non-existent.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  3. russell55

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    Can I ask a few couple of questions so that I can better understand your definitions?

    Even though you see the sin nature as not sin itself, do you see this imperfection as something that God's justice causes him to have wrath toward? As a further explanation of my question, I'm thinking in particular of Eph 2 where it says we are "by nature objects of God's wrath."

    So, would you include as sin every act that is not done with doing God's will (or to the glory of God) as it's motive?

    That's it, I guess. I think I understand well enough the def of free will....
     
  4. William C

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    I would have to agree with Dallas on this one. [​IMG]
     
  5. ScottEmerson

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    I think you were too quick to jump in here. He didn't say anything about what he believed. He just wanted to make sure that you would agree with the terms set out. Do you agree with the definitions?

    BTW, Sularis. I would agree with the definitions that you have written.
     
  6. William C

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    Only God would contain Free Will if this is the defination you are going to use.

    Free Will should be defined as the ability to reason or consider the options that have been made available to us despite the outward and inward circumstance that influence our decisions.

    Example:
    A rich man is influence by his love for money therefore his decisions are affected by his circumstances. This does not mean it is impossible for him to be willing to give up all that he has to follow Christ, just more difficult. Circumstances and our nature affect our decisions. But this does not negate that we have a mind, conscience and a heart that give us the capasity to reason and count the costs, which sets us apart from the animals.
     
  7. tyndale1946

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    Well Brethren have to start getting ready for my wifes memorial service... One question did Adam have the ability to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil... As the other trees were also available for fruit... Why did he?... Was it because of his love for his wife or something else?... Should be back on tomorrow if not sooner... Pray for your unworthy brother in the Lord!... Brother Glen :(
     
  8. Frogman

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    I think you were too quick to jump in here. He didn't say anything about what he believed. He just wanted to make sure that you would agree with the terms set out. Do you agree with the definitions?

    BTW, Sularis. I would agree with the definitions that you have written. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Scott, but if you will read my post now you will see that I dealt with the difinitions as he gave them. I would also classify a definition as what someone believes about something. Maybe you don't, but I believe my initial post is obvious as to whether I agree with the definitions or not.

    And brother Bill, do you really believe we are set apart from the animals as such???? :D
    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  9. Sularis

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    Well since I believe that there is an age of innocence - in that until such time an act of sin
    is committed or omitted - that a person is not under condemnation until he/she sins themselves - since the Bible is EXTREMELY clear that Im not responsible for my father's sin or even my ultimate father's sin that is Adam's sin - but I that I am MOST ASSUREDLY affected by it

    inasmuch that I am influenced to think that sin is perhaps a 'lesser' sin or perhaps not even a sin under certain conditions.

    But the purpose of the definitions is that we agree that that is what we mean by those basic terms

    and here's a sneak preview

    Free Will exists - I believe Adam had it - but as such I need to prove its continuance or existence


    Id rather people not get ahead of themselves - and agree to those definitions. Not to their existence
    just their meanings.

    Thanx
     
  10. Frogman

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    I cannot agree with this. I believe your definitions are correct, based on your beliefs, but that sin does not occur in man until it is committed I cannot accept.

    I do not believe free-will exists. As you say the Bible is very clear we are not held accountable for our fathers' sins, the Bible is very clear that in Adam all men die. Death being the wages of sin, then we possess sin even prior to the commission or ommission of it.

    Bro.Dallas
     
  11. ScottEmerson

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    And as Sularis pointed out: "Id rather people not get ahead of themselves - and agree to those definitions. Not to their existence
    just their meanings."
     
  12. Sularis

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    Frog - yer not getting it

    Im trying for definitions that are acceptable to everyone's beliefs

    I agree that death is the result of sin and the results or wages are transmitted but not the sin ;)

    But can we focus on definitions that everyone can agree with - otherwise there will be a great weaseling and squirrelling out via definitionally based loopholes.

    Sin
    Free Will
    Sin Nature
     
  13. Frogman

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    Ok, I see that you are going to force me to agree against my will---is this just? I don't recognize free-will since the fall; prior to the fall I do. This is my definition of free-will. Now it is a figment of man's imagination.

    I would define the pre fall condition of man as one not influenced by his sin nature; but certainly influenced by the pride of his heart; so I don't agree with your definition of free-will.

    There, the third post in which I have stated as plainly as I know how that I do not agree with your definition of free-will. If you agree that free-will means man is not influenced by a bondage of the sin nature, then, we agree, but your definition said man is not influenced by ANY prejudice or bias. I don't think this is the case.


    Bro. Dallas
     
  14. William C

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    Seriously guys, is there really any one who has "free will" according to your selected definition. Who is not influenced by prejudice or bias of some kind?

    Just the fact that sin surrounds us everyday is proof that we are influenced by it. External circumstances affects our conscience and ability to reason and choose. I do believe we have that capasity, but I certainly don't believe it hasn't been affected in ANY way by the Fall.

    I don't know many Arminians (including Jacobus) who believe that either. Please explain.
     
  15. William C

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    Double post
     
  16. Frogman

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    Working overtime Bill?? Or just stuttering?? :D
     
  17. Sularis

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    Im not trying to force you to agree to my definitions Frogman

    The point is you said

    I don't recognize free-will since the fall; prior to the fall I do.

    ok then prior to the fall can you define what free will means to you - you dont have to agree with my definition - state your own - Im not trying to nail people to my definitions but an agreed upon set of definitions

    Brother Bill
    all Im asking is if you agree to my definitions - if you dont - post your definitions - existence is irrevelant - i can define non-existent things
     
  18. Frogman

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    Prior to the fall man possessed the ability to freely choose from a sinless nature whether to obey God or to disobey God. At this time the will of man was free from the bondage and influence of sin. Yes, man possessed a free-will in all connotations of the word at that time.

    Is that satisfactory to show my position as to what I believe is the definition of free-will?

    Bro.Dallas
     
  19. Yelsew

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    Even the Prisoner on death row retains the ability to believe and freely choose who he has faith in. Man did not lose that ability because of sin or the bondage of sin. The prisoner may not have the freedom to change his circumstances, but he does have the ability to change his beliefs. Therein rests free will. Even after being convicted of his crime and Condemned to death, he can choose life by changing who he believes in.

    [ April 15, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]
     
  20. Frogman

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    I know what you believe Yelsew, this thread obviously is not for that end at this time, so if you don't mind just provide your definition of what is 'free-will.' Once the determination has been made concerning the three concepts (definitions thereof) given in the opening post, then the field will be open for battle, until then I must refrain from answering you in any form of a rebuttal.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     

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