Degree Mills

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by saturneptune, Jan 15, 2007.

  1. saturneptune

    saturneptune
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    I think people who buy degrees from degree mills are NOT the victim of scams. They know exactly what they are doing, and are trying themselves to scam employers. Sometimes this could be dangerous depending on the area. How would you like your pastor to have a ThD from Almeda or the likes?

    Those who use these bogus degrees as well as those who operate these institutions are committing a fraud and should be thrown in jail. It really clouds the picture from legitimate degrees on line.

    Very few purchase these degrees in ignorance. They know exactly what they are doing. Martin has a very good handle on this.

    Why do the authorities allow this to continue?
     
  2. Citizen

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    I think people should be satisfied with whatever education one displays, regardless of where they get said education from.

    Those who wail against people who got their degrees from institutions that aren't on the Evangelical Snooty List are only concerned with the value of letters next to their name.
     
  3. saturneptune

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    Paying an institution like Almeda several hundred to a few thousand for a degree you get in the mail when you picked the major is not an education. It is a fraud.
     
  4. Martin

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    ==Amen! Anyone who has a brain should know that you have to do work before getting a degree. :smilewinkgrin:

    ==I agree.

    ==Wow, I did not see that one coming. Thanks, but I think anyone who takes the time to look into this would come to the same conclusions.

    ==I have no idea.
     
  5. Citizen

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    Then don't hire anyone from Almeda. Problem solved.
     
  6. saturneptune

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    You see, that is where you are flat wrong. Two police officers in Florida were promoted using Almeda degrees. When they came to light, they were fired. Also, if you have been keeping up with current events as of late, you would know over 500 federal officials were either demoted or fired for using bogus degrees. Also, several theological (including Baptist) and educational leaders have resigned over the use of bogus degrees. In some states, like Oregon, it is illegal and carries criminal penalties. It is really not that hard to research a subject before posting.
     
  7. Citizen

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    A degree is NOT required for a man to answer God's call.

    Your charges to prove big guy.
     
    #7 Citizen, Jan 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 15, 2007
  8. saturneptune

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    I really dont know what to make of you. A degree from a degree mill is NOT a degree. It is a fraud. Second of all, a degree is not required all the time to answer God's call. That is up to the local church. Some Baptist churches have bivocational pastors, some associates, bachelors, all the way up to doctorates. It depends on the church.
     
  9. Citizen

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    I edited my post while you were responding.
     
  10. ABCJim

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    This stuff still goes on? I figured it was sort of a 70s thing since these "institutions" are so easily checked out.

    <<jim doesn't get out much>>
     
  11. Lagardo

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    Well, authority comes in many forms.

    There is no crime, per se, unless someone claims something untrue. For example, if I start a seminary from my den and issue print yourself degrees, that is not fraud. Like you said, people often know what they are doing.

    Now concerning this example, there are governmental authorities who gladly offer to anyone a standard to judge me by. Its called accredidation. So that's one type of authority.

    Now, if I start claiming that these are accredited when they are not, or I try to tell you that schools will accept my degrees, when they will not, then I am legally guilty of fraud. There are authorities that will handle that too. This has happened before. One that comes to mind was University of Columbia in Louisiana.

    But as you say, people know what they are getting in to, so it is not fraud. Less than honest, yes, but not fraud.

    So that brings another authority to mind: employers.

    Churches have the responsibility of doing their homework. If a search team feels that MDIV, DMIN, etc means anything then they should know what they are dealing with. The same goes for ordination, for that matter.

    For what its worth, as an interim pastor I worked with a search team to find their new pastor. I was shocked at just how many Dr.'s from degree mills were submitted on resumes.
     
  12. Lagardo

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    I agree with this, although I think for such an important calling, preparation is in order...but that does not mandate a degree.

    However, why is it that rather than a pastor standing on his calling, he instead pays a few hundred bucks to a degree mill and tells prospective churches he has a seminary degree?

    Is this more or less wrong than a pastor lying about a previous marriage, ordination, experience, etc?
     
  13. Citizen

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    If the pastor pays money for a degree without so much as having to do any coursework for it, then I would be suspicious of his motivations.

    That said, one can preprare for God's calling without the aid of secondary education. I am a minister and I am pursuing seminary training. I'm only doing it for my own edification however. If a "board" would only hire me if I had a degree, then they obviously don't have prayer in mind for making their decision.
     
  14. Martin

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    ==While this "can" be true, and it is in the Baptist Church, I think honesty is required to answer God's call. A person who claims to hold a degree from a school is claiming that they have earned that degree. If they did not earn it, if they only purchased it without any work, then they are being dishonest. This does disqualify a person from the Lord's work.
     
  15. Lagardo

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    I knew a church that had all members take a survery as to what to require out of their next pastor.

    The results were something like:
    Married with children
    Has a doctorate
    Has prior experience
    is 45-55 years old

    They got exactly what they were looking for...and it showed.

    Of course, bringing it back to the topic at hand, the man's doctorate was mail-order.

    In this case, I am critical of both, the church who takes such a worldly approach, and the man who boasts a degree for the purposes of being hired.

    We want to think that churches don't do this, or that someone on ministry would not do this...but they do. I used to think the ads I saw in "Pulpit Helps" where they list the cost for the "NO Textbook required" degrees (BA: $300, MDIV, $500, PhD $800) were funny...until I saw the schools listed on resumes.
     
  16. paidagogos

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    Complicated situation


    We all wish it was this easy but we are dealing with a very complex and involved situation. We must protect academic freedom and innovation along with protecting the consumer and the public. Here are some hang-ups:
    • How do you separate degree mills from legitimate schools of poor quality?
    • All schools are unaccredited when they begin and for this reason alone we must allow for unaccredited schools. Then, there are those with religious convictions against accreditation though you may not share those convictions. Thus, a very strong argument favors the existence of unaccredited schools. Not all unaccredited schools are of poor quality, BTW.
    • How do we protect the independence and freedom of higher education from government intrusion and control?
    • How do you prove one knowingly purchased a bogus degree? Anyone can claim they did it in good faith if they complete some fairly easy lessons.
    So, there is no one shot solution. It is our responsibility--all of us—to tread this thing down. Degree seekers must not take the easy way out. Employers must not hire the sham degree holders. And the rest of us need to be knowledgeable and vigilant in this matter. Everyone is saying, “Someone ought to do something about this.” We, the citizens, can do something on a case-by-case basis. After all, it is the public who buys the product that creates a demand for the bogus degrees. It's rather like the illegal drug business. The drug pushers would be out of business if it wasn't for the junkies buying the stuff.
     
  17. Brother Randall

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  18. El_Guero

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    One of your better posts.

     
  19. av1611jim

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    Someone asked why a minister would say they had a degree when it was only from a degree mill.
    Hirelings. Not Shepheards.

    Are we not told in Scripture about them?

    Why be so surprised and shocked that it would be so?

    It is the duty of each local church to exercise due diligence when seeking a pastor. Should they fail to exercise discernment and due diligence then they get what they have sown.

    Harsh.....but that is the way God's economy works.

    Sewing and reaping.
     
  20. Plain Old Bill

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    There are some schools which are LESS than wonderful who serve a legitimate purpose, thier degrees lack luster usually due to lack of rigor, languages,or inbred degrees granted to the school staff. There is still a lot of work to do in many of these schools and it will take from one to 10 years to get you where you are going.There are a variety of reasons some people choose these schools,some are from a church background that disdains most of the accredited schools as to liberal,to calvinist,mv's of bible,and a host of other reasons. Although these schools are less than wonderful by some standards they do meet a need and would not fall in the category of DEGREE MILL, but you have to know what you are getting into and the limitations the less than wonderful degrees will place on you if you pursue them.

    If education is what you want there are plenty of free legitimate accredited schools which offer free individual courses online(you even get a certificate of completion)From the Bible institute level through seminary level. I would think you can apply these accredited courses to degrees at other schools as well. This would greatly reduce the cost of an education in addition to being very convenient.

    :godisgood:
     

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