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Degree- worth the paper?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Luke2427, Dec 4, 2010.

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  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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  3. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #24 Luke2427, Dec 5, 2010
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  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Worth it?

    Here is a quick story about something that happened to me a few months back. I had began studying the passage of Hosea and Gomer several months back. There was one thing that I thought really stuck out, and I couldn't get a grasp of it's significance(sp?). It was the part where Hosea bought Gomer back for 15 pieces of silver and 1.5 homers of barley. The 1.5 homers of barley really had me puzzled and I wanted to know what it had to do with the story(I am one who tries to get the "spiritual meanings" from the bible). I knew that there was more to it than that. Back during the summer, a friend of mine was preaching one night, and lo and behold, he preached on Hosea and Gomer. He then stated that he had heard another preacher state that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver. When he stated that, I wanted to jump through the roof!! God had just showed me what I was looking and asking for!! The 1.5 homers of barley and 15 pieces of silver were worth 30 pieces of silver!

    The moral of this story is this: If you earnestly seek God's wisdom, and ask for it in a meek and humble way, He will give it to you directly, or by others means, such as through a sermon.

    One more thing, and this is not a slam to those on here who hold doctorates, MDiv, or any other degree: The pupil is only as smart*in most cases* as the teacher. That teacher was only as smart*in most cases* the teacher that taught him, and he was only as smart*in most cases* as the teacher that taught him, and so on, and so on.........

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  6. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #26 Luke2427, Dec 5, 2010
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  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Where do you suppose that tid bit of info concerning how much a homer of barely was worth came from?

    It came from someone with a powerful biblical education. That preacher might have dug it up in some commentary but the original source of that info came from someone with a tremendous education.

    God gave you- a layman- a marvelous piece of info that blessed you abundantly via someone who had a degree.

    Thank God for educated people who know more than we do!
    Thank God we can go to their commentaries and benefit from their superior knowledge!!

    Amen?
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    William Carey had little if any formal training. He was a cobbler. He stood against the hyper-Calvinism of his time, and the churches that tried to dissuade him from being a missionary, from going overseas. And yet he went to India. Only a cobbler. He translated the Bible or portions thereof into 44 different languages. He had no seminary training.
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Bro Luke,

    On the contrary. Around here where I live (western WVa-eastern Ky) most of those who preach, do so without the use of seminary. I am not bashing anyone who goes there, but that is not the sole requirement for someone being deemed a bible scholar.The preacher mine friend heard(he never gave his name(or if he did, I don't remember), was more than likely, an uneducated man, meaning no seminary. I understand what you mean by someone with a tremendous education, but some of them seem to think more of their seminary degree than their righteosness(rightstanding) with God.

    I have had many "unscholared" preachers that would make me want to jump through the roof! Salvation is about the message and not the messenger. One can make their point without the use of a MDiv. I am not against them, but when you use them as the measuring stick and not the Holy Ghost then you have erred greatly. I am not saying you have done this, but it seems that quite a few have.

    Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

    12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

    13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

    14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation,being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

    15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

    16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

    17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.


    Apostle Paul stated that preaching is by revelation of Jesus Christ only!!



    1Cor. 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.


    Again, let me say that I am not bashing anyone who holds the MDiv's, but don't let that be the sole reason why someone is to be considered for a pastoring position.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
    #29 convicted1, Dec 5, 2010
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  10. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Church history is rife with these kinds of exceptions to the rule. But that is what they are- exceptions.

    I wonder if William Carey leaned heavily upon scholars as he translated the Scriptures.

    I think we know that he did.

    Thank God then that William Carey had access to the wisdom of formally trained men!

    Amen?

    P. S. William Carey did indeed stand against hyper-calvinism as we all should. but he was a thorough Calvinist himself. Just wanted to make sure we all are on the same page.
     
    #30 Luke2427, Dec 5, 2010
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  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You didn't answer my question, Bud. Where do you suppose that wonderful tid bit of info came from?

    That pastor didn't receive the revelation that a homer of barley was worth 10 pieces of silver from an angel. He got it somewhere. He didn;t just know it himself. He wasn't born with the knowledge that in Bible days a homer of barley was worth ten pieces of silver.

    He may ahve heard it at the mouth of another pastor who is not so bent against wisely utilizing the help of scholars.

    But however he got it, it must have originally come from a person with formal training.

    Therefore you can thank God for the one with the formal education who with that education was able to uncover that tid bit of info that so blessed your heart.
     
    #31 Luke2427, Dec 5, 2010
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  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What wisdom of formally trained men would he have to rely upon? When he went there, there were none.

    When Adoniram Judson went to Burma he "broke" the Burmese language. No one had ever been able to put it into language form before.
     
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    #33 Luke2427, Dec 5, 2010
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  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    From your source:
    The point is that God is able to take a man who has almost no education, give him a gift wherein he is able to study and teach himself, educate himself without the aid of seminaries--as Carey did, to the point where he himself is able to be a missionary, teacher, establish a college for others, a university for others, and such a tremendous task as translating the Bible or portions thereof into 44 different languages.

    For that Carey did not have formal training. He taught himself. In fact, history shows that many did the same thing. Spurgeon also had little formal training and yet was called the prince of preachers and established his own college.

    People with little education, or no seminary education are able to go far beyond those that do have seminary education. Not all people are able to do this, but some are. It does depend how a person is able to apply themselves. In this day and age with the internet and so many other resources easily available to us, I see no reason why a person with a burning heart to serve the Lord cannot educate himself.
     
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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  17. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    Luke, your sacrifice of time and money to better study the bible is not to be sneezed at, and deserves recognition and congratulations. You worked and studied hard, and no one can argue against that.

    But for you to "dismiss" the laity because they didn't work as hard as you, didn't sacrifice as much as you, didn't spend as much money as you did....

    To place yourself and other scholars above other people....

    In my personal opinion, here's the fundamental (pardon the pun?) problem with Luke's argument:

    Which college? Which scholars?

    Is a PhD from Liberty "better" than a PhD from Trinity? Or Crown College? Or Southwest Baptist, or Southern Baptist, or California Baptist?

    How about the student who obtained his/her degree from a distance learning course? Is that of any less value than the one who spent his/her time & money attending classes at the university itself?

    Once you start the line of thought of "who's better," then you have to start nit-picking it until you agree on who actually is better and why.

    Is it arrogant for a layman to place himself as an equal with someone who has spent time & money on a seminary degree? I don't know; did you ask the layman some of the questions you had to answer in order to obtain your seminary degree? Did they get them correct?

    If they did, did you congratulate them for their own personal hard work and study, even though they didn't have access to the same resources you did?
     
  18. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Well said Don.

    What do the Scriptures teach about comparing oneself with another?

    "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
    - 2 Cor. 10:12

    (and what happened to esteeming others better than ourselves, Philippians 2:3?)

    It's called being unwise, or, since being abrasive is his tool of choice to use on others, it's used for a person who has not understanding.

    It's just foolishness, this comparing, then judging himself better, then demanding respect. Respect is earned. So is being judged as arrogant.
     
    #38 preacher4truth, Dec 5, 2010
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  19. Old Union Brother

    Old Union Brother New Member

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    well said Preacher
     
  20. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

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    There are some great and some rather horrible statements made on both sides of this issue in this thread.

    I'm not sure how or why anyone would bash a dedicated theological education, save for the choice of schools or teachers can have a rather dramatic impact on the end result, but that is equally the case for the one who never darkens the door of an educational facility.

    Another point is that the "doing" of the works of our faith is a separate issue from the knowing of doctrines and theology. I've met plenty of very educated persons who have not or can not "do" the very first work of the church, but who can and do train those who actually put hands and feet to the gospel. I wish it were otherwise, and in many seminaries and Bible colleges, it is, but that is not universal any more than it is universal that the person who has never attended said institutions is better off -- they indeed may be lacking.

    I thank and praise God for my education. I've had the distinct honor of sitting under the tutelage of men who write the books that everyone else uses in their coursework. As one coming from a perspective like that of many who do not think a formal education all that valuable (I did not start back to school until age 39, at which time I procured a Bachelor's and a Master's degree), I have now changed my mind. My seminar education was worth every cent and worth every sleepless night as I wrestled with the Text, with the books of church history, theology, and biblical languages.

    A question for those not enamored of higher education... Have you ever sat down and worked though 12 or more full-length, detailed books on any given subject in a semester's time? Have you ever forced yourself to write a cohesive, reviewed paper where what you wrote would be examined against the text by persons who may be the world's foremost experts in that field of study? That is just the beginning of what happens when one enters the field of theological education. The cost of that level of discipleship and education is immense, both in dollars and in personal sacrifice, and yes, after the conclusion, you will be better equipped to think your way through difficult issues and also better grounded in the historical faith that we pass on to future generations.

    One thing that I've seen as consistent over the centuries... Heretical cults are started by men (and women) with just an idea and a Bible. We can look at virtually every heresy on earth and realize that it had its start when one individual took something out of context in the Word because they had no background to grasp the implications of what they were doing. Grounded theological education is the antedate (mostly) for that sort of thing, and that does not deny the actions of the Holy Spirit one iota. The Holy Spirit is just as capable to enlighten the man who instructs in the seminary as the man who does not, and I've seen both cases to be true. The primary action required for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit is salvation, and profs can be saved as well as the man in the primitive church out in the boonies. But the arrogance of the undedicated man in this case is astounding -- denigrating something that he cannot even understand based on an a priori idea that he has allowed to be planted in his head is the utmost in silliness.
     
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