Degrees of punishment in Hell/in Heaven?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Sep 1, 2009.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    First off- my title is a little confusing, sorry. I meant degrees of hell and degrees of heaven. Not punishment in heaven :)

    Well in my college class "man and sin" we had a discussion last night and it actually is right in line with what I have been studying in a small church group. I heard two views at both places in regards to levels of the afterlife for the condemned. I also added the levels of heaven to make it more interesting hopefully-

    Main views on Hell

    1. All who are condemned in Adam will receive the same level of punishment in Hell (Hitler and the average Joe) because there cannot be any worse degree of punishment when in hell. God is present in His wrath and no love, mercy, or Grace will be obviously. There is nothing that can be worse than the full wrath of God for sin, therefore all will have the full punishment. Furthermore All sin against God is eternally punishable because of the greatness of that sin cannot be any greater in that is against a Holy God. From the human perspective there are various levels of sin in which have worse effects in life, but in this view we are not judged based on our works of sin but rather that we are already condemned in full.

    2. We are judged by our works in this view there will be different levels of punishment in Hell. Hitler will have eternal punishment worse than the average good guy who is not a believer, although both are eternal torment. In this view people will be judged finely by their every evil deed they did in its level of evil.

    Views for heaven

    1. in the same way number 1 for hell works above it will be for those with eternal life with Christ. All will have the same level of heaven because there really cant be a greater level of heaven in that all will be under the eternal love and grace of Christ. The most excellent evangelist will have the same degree of heaven as the most unknown small town evangelist. We are all judged by the works of Christ which in turn makes us all equal so to speak being perfect through Him.

    2. There will be different levels of heaven based on our works on the earth. Those who have done the most works in Christ will basically have a more heavenly heaven. This view is obvious in how it works.

    Now my opinion-

    I hold view number 1 for hell now, I used to hold view 2. I also hold view number 1 for heaven and I always have due to the fact that I couldn't imagine having any greater blessing than it already is, along with the fact that I am not there on my merits to begin with.

    What is your belief?
     
    #1 zrs6v4, Sep 1, 2009
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  2. Winman

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    This is a difficult question, but I believe the Bible does teach that there are degrees of punishment in hell, and reward in heaven.

    Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
    48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

    Believer's will receive rewards, and some will receive more than others.

    1 Cor 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
     
  3. zrs6v4

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    I believe believers will receive rewards also,my but my question to you is what are these rewards or reward? My initial thought is the crown of glory which is eternal life, and possibly fruits of ministry if God wills.

    I will be going back to your quote on levels of punishment because that is a good reference regarding punishment.
     
  4. Allan

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    The bible speaks 5 different or types crowns/rewards that can be awarded.

    Five Crowns Of Scripture

    1. The Crown of Life/The Martyr's Crown:
    This Crown is mentioned twice in Scripture: Jam 1:12 and Rev 2:10.

    2. The Crown of Glory: The Shepherd's Crown (faithful pastorial crown), given by the Chief Shepherd when He shall appear. I Peter 5:2-4

    3. The Crown of Rejoicing also known as the "Soul Winner's Crown"
    Given to those who have turned many to righteousness. I Thessalonians 2:19.

    4. The Crown of Righteousness
    This is the crown for those who "Love His appearing!" and will be given in "that day"- II timothy 4:8

    5. The Crown Incorruptible" or "Victor's Crown!"
    ... I Corinthians 9:25-27 "And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we, an "incorruptible."

    And even though we are awarded such by God, what will do with them according to scripture?
    So though they are our reward, we acknowledge not only from whom they came but also the very reason have such a reward bestowed unto us. The casting them at His feet does not mean we give them up but that we recognize the one who is greater then all, as the all in all.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There is also degrees of resposibility/ruling in the Kingdom which believers are awarded also. example - Mat 19:28/Luk 33:30; the 12 apostles will be given 12 thrones from which to judge/rule over the 12 tribes of Israel. As we know Christ is the King and there will be lesser rulers of and within the Kingdom, just as there is in our government. One head (but with all authority) and those to whom he gives authority to administer over certain portions and things of that kingdom, but directly accountable to Him. and other various scirptures refering to these things.


    Hell is thought to be in the same way, of varying degrees. One place we see this is when Jesus declares that it is better for certain cities that never heard and seen His words and miricles in the day of judgment that it will be for those who did. Implying a worse judgment and this corrisponds to the passage which Jesus states 'to whom much is given, much will be required'. We also see with respect to demons some are in darkness/hell (2 Peter 2:4), and some are in chains 'under' the darkness in hell (jude 1:6).

    However scripture never really elaborates on the degrees of hells suffering only that there is some kind of distinction therein.
     
    #4 Allan, Sep 1, 2009
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  5. OldRegular

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    Without the crown of life or the crown of righteousness the others would not matter. Actually there is only one crown simply described in different ways on different occasions.
     
  6. Allan

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    That is one opinion concerning them, but I don't think one can see that it in the context of the passages in which they are found.
     
    #6 Allan, Sep 1, 2009
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  7. preachinjesus

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    honestly hell is bad enough why make it worse? I've heard the argument that because of the different words for hell there Are different levels, but I'm not so sure.I believe because of the Nature of hell it will be bad enough and not need any additional torment.

    As for heaven, I believe there will be rewards but we will leave then before Christ in an example of worship.

    Just my $.02:thumbs:
     
  8. OldRegular

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    Certainly one can! You must understand that context of a verse must be considered in terms of the greater context of the BIBLE.
     
  9. Allan

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    Umm. sorry.. scripture is understood first and primarily in the context of the surrounding passages in which the concepts and ideas are defined. THen you look at the other passages of scripture elsewhere which in the context of the surrounding passages can elaborate more fully, confirm the same idea or speak to another aspect of a different idea. However if one tries to erroneously make a passage conform to their 'idea' of some 'greater context' outside of or instead of the primary context given by the writer, then you have theology interpreting scripture, and not scripture determining ones theology.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    You can spin like a politician. If you will check the Scripture you will understand that there is only one crown, sometimes called the crown of life, sometimes the crown of righteousness. If one does not get the crown of life how does he get another crown.

    Pertinent Scripture:

    1Co 9:25. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
    1Th 2:19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
    2Ti 4:8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
    Jas 1:12. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
    1Pe 5:4. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
    Re 2:10. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

    Now you can eisegete Allen.
     
  11. Allan

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    Whatever OR...

    You can keep your ad-hom comments and childish behavior. I'm not going to continue arguing with you over such silliness, if you think they are all the same then you need to read them again. Example -The shepards or Pastors crown/Crown of glory is not the same crown as the 'martyrs'. They are distinctly different and for two distinctly different purposes. I gave the scriptures and anyone can look at the context of each one and see for themselves, that is all that really matters now isn't it? The OP asked a question concerning the bible and I gave answers directly proportional to the context of each passage listed.
     
    #11 Allan, Sep 2, 2009
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  12. OldRegular

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    The Crowns:

    1 Corinthians 9:25. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.[/i]

    1 Thessalonians 2:19. For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?[/i]

    2 Timothy 4:8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.[/i]

    James 1:12. Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.[/i]

    1 Peter 5:4. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.[/i]

    Revelation 2:10. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.[/i]

    In the passage from Revelation Jesus Christ promises a crown of life to those who are faithful unto death. That crown of life is for all true believers as indicated in the passage from James and represents eternal life. The questions:

    Are those who receive eternal life, the crown of life, righteous? YES!

    Are those who receive eternal life, the crown of life, glorified? YES!

    Are those who receive eternal life, the crown of life, joyful? YES!

    Are those who receive eternal life, the crown of life, incorruptible? YES!

    Now unless we all wind up in heaven with 5 heads there is only one crown!
     
  13. Allan

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    No. There are two types of righteousness spoken of in scripture. One is eternally righteous before God with respect to sin debt.

    The other is in respect to our walk before the Lord which is what Paul is dealing with in 2 Tim 4:8 concern the very crown of righteousness. Notice Paul does not state 'all believers' there but all who love His appearing BECAUSE they have been obedient. Those who are in sin are not goint to be looking for His appearing nor will they be excitedly awaiting His return.

    Understand that all believers can obtain these crowns but not all believers, according to scripture, will have them.

    Again, according to context you are wrong here as well. The crown of glory is specific to the those who 'shepard' the church, and thus the 'Great Shepard' will give them this crown. Context is king brother.

    Again incorrect. This crown is for those who remained faithful during percution even to their deaths. This is why it is refered to as the martyrs crown.

    Please, please, please, read the context of the passages so you can actually understand what is being conveyed. The crown of life is a crown/reward for those who have brought their life and thus their body as well as their desires into subjection and obedience. This is not only seen in their 'life' but this is known to be how their life is lived. We see this distiction in believers throughout church history, where some men's lives are more devoted to holiness than others.

    You only gave 4 but in any case, historically a person who wears multiple crowns does so because the crowns were designed to interlay one upon the the other and each is made light so the combined weight is not overbearing.


    ANYWAY,.. say what you want here after since I am done in explaining the differences. Both yours and mine are views on the text, and I am fine with that. But let us get back to the OP.
     
    #13 Allan, Sep 2, 2009
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  14. OldRegular

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    Are you talking about self righteousness? I like Gill's exposition better than yours.

    Ver. 8. Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, &c.] The happiness of the future state of the saints is signified by a crown, on account of the glory and excellency of it; and in perfect agreement with the character of the saints, as kings; and who are raised to sit among princes, and to inherit the throne of glory, and have a kingdom prepared for them; and this is called a crown "of righteousness", because it comes through the righteousness of Christ; it is that which gives a right unto it, and without which it cannot be enjoyed; and because it is obtained and possessed in a righteous way, and not by force and usurpation, as crowns sometimes are: it is God the Father's free gift unto his children, what they are born heirs unto, and have a meetness for, through regenerating and sanctifying grace, and have a legal title to it through the righteousness of Christ. Moreover, this may be expressive of the perfect holiness and righteousness of the heavenly state, and of the saints in it, wherein will dwell none but righteous persons, and who will be entirely without sin. And this happiness, signified by a crown, is "laid up"; in the covenant of grace for the saints, which is ordered in all things and sure; and in Christ, in whose hands their persons are, and their grace is, and with him also is their life of glory hid and secured: and this also is laid up in heaven, and reserved there, and that ....

    Now what does Scripture say about self righteousness:

    Isaiah 64:6. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


    Better go back and count again!
     
  15. Thinkingstuff

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    what does the temperature have to do with Heaven and Hell. I suppose Hell will be pretty hot. And Heaven moderate. But I don't know over all
     
  16. kyredneck

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    .... maybe the worse sinner one is the hotter hell is........ ???

    ....the more righteous one is the more crowns one will have.....????

    .......not...
     
  17. zrs6v4

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    I am trying to just stay out and listen to what is being said, but are you hinting that there is only one equal righteousness, and one equal condemnation?

    I would say that worse judgment would be a heavier wrath of God and more torment, although I am not sure if God will have levels of wrath or not, I am in the middle.

    As for rewards for Saints. I would say all work is started and ultimately finished by God from Justification-Glorification therefore if any saint received a reward greater than another then I could only see the result of great humility and laying the reward back at God's feet understanding it was Him who did it if it was indeed "Good" (as Allan pretty much said). So in a sense there is no good works by us deserving a reward greater than eternal life with Christ which is the full reward in my opinion (which I'm sure all agree).
     
  18. zrs6v4

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    Heaven is 77 degrees

    hell is infinity degrees

    purgatory is 166 degrees with humidity

    :smilewinkgrin:
     
  19. Allan

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    Again, you stand in the wrong place with your toy sword attacking the strawman you set up. I said 'nothing' of the sort.

    Do you know remember the parable of the talents amoung many other examples that believers will not all receive the same rewards.
     
  20. Allan

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    It appears that way, and I would say it appears that OR agrees.

    This portion here (started and finished by God from justification to glorificiation) I believe concerns more specific to salvation than the believer living out his christian life. That is IF you are refering back to the Romans 8passage.

    If the above is true, specicially toward our christian living, then God works in some believers to be fairly lazy in their christian walk as well as very undiscerning in some/many of their activities both public and private. Whereas in others others He makes them to live a more holy in life and conversation. In both of the cases it is the not the persons choice to live in such a way but God's moving them to live in each way because it is God who does all things, start to finish in believers. Therfore the desires of both are initiated by God and completed by Him, in the one to live continuously right before the Lord and in the other to live in a much less desirous manner than the first. (as I see it)

    As such, we can never forget our responsiblity in both our life and conversation. Without question God does moves us to holiness but we must respond in faith to walk in it. Some seem to forget this.

    I agree, and you are correct - that was my implication :thumbs:

    The rewards I spoke of refer to that responsibility of our self sacrifice and obedience now that we are in Christ.

    These rewards reveal the extent of self sacrifice and obedience these people were willing to give.
     

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