Deity of Jesus with absolute certainty

--------------------------------------------------
michelle said "Christ = God"

Correct. This is what the Geneva, NIV, and many other Bibles say with absolute certainty in Rom 9:5, where the KJV was watered it down.

--------------------------------------------------

"Christ" does not equal any other than God. Christ is speaking of God.

"He" does not equal God. He can be speaking of anyone. He does not equal God. He is a generic word. Christ is a name. Christ is the name and office of God. He is generic word and is not a specifice name. The KJB in both verses indicate the name of God. Not so with the NIV.

Who is "Christ"?

Who is "He"?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Good point!

 

Oops, i left out a portion i intended to
post. Anyone who cannot see the simple meaning
of a pronoun or understand the use
thereof MUST NEVER be listened to on any
matter concerning: the English Language,
the meaning of sentences in the English
Language, books written in the English
Language nor any other subject pertaining
to English or language.

BTW, " ... God ... He was mantifested
in the flesh ... " fixes eternally the
Deity of Jesus with absolute certainty.
People who drag their feet on the He = God
matter probably have issues we cannot help
them with here.

Praise Iesus!

 

--------------------------------------------------
Yes, they do reveal. The prior verse is talking about "God" - that is the "he". English grammar is your friend. Well, it's my friend anyway.
--------------------------------------------------


NIV

1 Tim. 3

14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that,


15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.


16Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He[3] appeared in a body,[4]
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.


Where is this prior verse you are referring to in this passage of scripture? The prior verses are speaking of the churches of God and the mystery of their faith. Where is this "He" referring back to?


KJB

1 Tim. 3

14. These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

15. But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Seems as though Paul is clearly stating the absolute truth of this mystery of godliness, to which is God was manifest in the flesh. Not that "He" was manifest in the flesh. Paul is stating here and ABSOLUTE TRUTH OF THIS MYSTERY. "He" does not belong where God's name is meant and clearly preserved as being so. This verse of scripture my children memorize and know in their heart that great mystery that: "God was manifest in the flesh", not "He was manifest in the flesh".


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

--------------------------------------------------
Oops, i left out a portion i intended to
post. Anyone who cannot see the simple meaning
of a pronoun or understand the use
thereof MUST NEVER be listened to on any
matter concerning: the English Language,
the meaning of sentences in the English
Language, books written in the English
Language nor any other subject pertaining
to English or language.
--------------------------------------------------

With all due respect Ed, we are not talking about any book here. WE are talking about the SCRIPTURES, the very words of GOD ALMIGHTY. We are to study them, know them, memorize them, and hide them away in our hearts. God's word, the scriptures DECLARE WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH. They do not declare with absolute certainty HE WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH. Have your children or loved ones memorize this watered down and weak verse. I however, will have my children and loved ones memorize and know absolutely clearly and simply that GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH. They can declare this absolute truth, from the simple and absolute truth and authority of the scriptures.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Gee, I must be gifted or something, as I have never had any difficulty discerning who "He" was refering to in any of these verses in any of the translations that I have read. Wow, I can't wait to tell me Special Ed. teacher tomorrow...Not.

Common sense. That's all that is required. Common sense. And that applies to all, period.

I have yet to find ANYWHERE in any of the translations that I own (which are many) any place that denies or reduces Christ's claim of deity. Just because a translation does not word a verse the same as the King James does not mean that it is "watering down" the deity of Christ.

The very idea is lunacy at the very least. And you can take that for whatever you feel like, and it applies to all.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

You repeat yourself.
I repeat myself:

"" ... God ... He was mantifested
in the flesh ... " fixes eternally the
Deity of Jesus with absolute certainty.
People who drag their feet on the He = God
matter probably have life
issues we cannot help them with here."

Praise Iesus, Sonne of God

 

Trotter: " … Special Ed."

You shouldn't have. It is hard to stay humble when you
say things like that …

Trotter: //I have yet to find ANYWHERE in any of the translations that I own (which are many) any place that denies or reduces Christ's claim of deity. Just because a translation does not word a verse the same as the King James does not mean that it is "watering down" the deity of Christ.//

Amen, Brother Trotter -- Preach it!!

 

I guess that some KJVOist don't like the fact that MV's like the NIV and NASB refer to God in 1 Tim 3:16 as "He". I guess they prefer the liberal gender neutral wording! I wonder if feminism has anything to do with this? <---LOL!!!!!!

Maybe that's why they don't say anything about the KJV calling the Holy Spirit "itself" thus giving the Holy Spirit a gender neutral liberal rendering rather than the literal rendering "Himself" that properly assigns the male gender to the Holy Spirit.

I'm sure that this will be ignored....

Which scriptures? Rom 9:5 in the NIV is one. Titus 2:13 in the NIV is another one. 2 Pet 1:1 in the NIV is another one. The KJV watered down all three of these, where the NIV declares the deity of Jesus Christ with absolute certainty.

Good point!

Also here is for our KJVOist to ponder:

Main Entry: pro·noun
Pronunciation: 'prO-"naun
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English pronom, from Latin pronomin-, pronomen, from pro- for + nomin-, nomen name -- more at PRO-, NAME
: any of a small set of words in a language that are used as substitutes for nouns or noun phrases and whose referents are named or understood in the context

Oh no... there is that word CONTEXT! Yikes! Some people have a problem with that word!

 

--------------------------------------------------
Oh no... there is that word CONTEXT! Yikes! Some people have a problem with that word!
--------------------------------------------------

We are talking about the scriptures, the very words of God. God's word declares GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH. They do not declare HE WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Michelle,

You may want to check out "Schoolhouse Rock". They are on video now. My daughter knows them by heart (as do my wife and I...but we watched them on Saturday mornings).

You seem to really be in need of "Grammar Rock". Especially the one about Mr. Sasparilla and his use of PRONOUNS. You seem to have a hard time grasping the concept.

The bible was not originally written with chapter and verse divisions. Those were added around the 13th century, I think. Anyway, the books of the bible were written as "wholes", not bits and pieces to be ripped bleeding from their surroundings...their "context". By removing a verse from its surroundings, you are violating the word of God.

As a preacher, I am very much aware of the ramifications of removing a verse from its context. I cringe everytime I hear a preacher or pastor preach from a verse that has been taken out of context and forced to parade around as something it is not...sort of how you KJVOs like to do with your "proof texts".

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Yes, Ed, you are very special. Not only do you ride the short bus, you have your very own personalized seat on it.

Luv ya, brother

In Christ,
Trotter

 

Trotter, you might want to stop focusing upon such wordly programs as schoolhouse rock and stop attributing those things to the scriptures to which are the very words of God. God's very word says God was manifest in the flesh. This is an absolute statement of truth that Paul was making. He did not say He was manifest in the flesh, leaving the reader to go search and find out what in the world Paul was speaking. God's name is meant there, and has also been preserved as being there. Not He. He does not belong in that verse. This is the point.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

Love you also, Brother Trotter. Ain't this a lick???
the referrant for "you" is AFTER the
pronoun Here the referrant for "you"
is "Brother Trotter". Wow! ain't we
exercising the ol' English language

[ September 06, 2004, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

Amen, Sister Michelle -- Preach it!

I Timothy 3:15-16 (HCSB):
15 But if I should be delayed, I have written
so that you will know how people ought to
act in God's household, which is the
church of the living God,
the pillar and foundation of the truth.
16 And most certainly, the
mystery of godliness is great:
He* was manifested in the flesh,
justified in the Spirit,
seen by angels, preached among
the Gentiles, believed on in
the world, taken up in glory.

How far do you have to search here for
who is referred to by "He"? In the
HCSB this is NOT a problem, for the
capital "H" in "He" shows that the
pronoun referres to the diety or one
of His three persons.

* the footnote here reads:

Other mss read God

Why do people who remove the footnote's
truths from their Bibles also seem to
be the ones who have trouble resolving their
pronouns?

Praise Him!

 

Why do you not see the problem here? Scriptures declare GOD was manifest in the flesh specifically, not generically. Now it is changed to He in the NIV, and the true word, the truth is put into a footnote. Why can you not see what is being done? How can you condone such a thing? They have taken God's name out of this verse and replaced it with a generic pronoun, and sowing doubt to the reader. This is unacceptable to me. How can you condone such a thing and then claim to love the word of God?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

It's capitalized which unlike your KJV the NIV translators thought they would honor the names of the Trinity by capitlizing pronouns refering to Father, Son,Holy Spirit. And as we see in Romans 9:5 the NIV considered Jesus God in the flesh.

1cross+3nails=4given

 

Only you have
brought doubt upon the Written Word
of God as preserved for the 20th Century
(2001-2100) in the NIV. In fact, the
NIV amplifies and stregnthens the truth
contained by and our faith
in the KJV1769, KJV1611, and KJV1873
(and other KJVs that people might have).

I cannot tolerate those who will take
faith building & truth bearing margin
notes out of their book and still
think they can hoodwink the rest of us
that they are more pious than we.
God Forbid

Praise Iesus, Sonne of God!

 

Amen, Brother DeclareHim -- Preach it!

 

What do you guys expect she is used to reading the KJV where the translators didn't honor the members of the Trinity by capitilizing the pronouns. So in Michelle's Bible you are left wondering who? he? is refering to. But in my MV I know it is speaking of a member of the Trinity if the pronoun is capitilized. Oh well don't argue with someone who doesn't see facts.

1cross+3nails=4given