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Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by timothy 1769, Mar 27, 2003.
where does this idea come from? does it have a biblical basis, or is it only a man-made tradition?
I wouldn't say it is man-made totally. There are passages that indicate that the entire congregation be involved. However, the norm is to have the elders lead.
maybe it's just my church. there's 2 elders, but it seems almost everything (especially involving money) is put to a vote.
oh, here's a question. is casting a vote considered wielding authority?
I would say that each church is autonomous to decide just how much the church votes on. Here is how you know there is a problem: people get upset that they weren't consulted or allowed to vote on a decision.
What is the point of overseers if they actually are asking permission?
"Obey them that have authority over you, for they care for your soul."
What would you expect your members to obey?
How would you enforce your rules?
If you could show them to me in the Bible, I would
not mind obeying, but if you cannot show me, I
do not believe you have authority.
I don't see any scripture support for democracy or voting on things. God has authorty in place in all areas of life,esp the church.The elders are to lead. This is all with the understanding that the man meets the qualifications and is leading correctly.
So then, it is like a democracy. If you put any conditions on his being the leader of the flock, it turns the church into a democracy. If it was not, then the pastor would have rule over everything, and no one would be able to question him.
He's kind of like the President. He is put into his office and he is our new leader, BUT if he does something that is illegal, he can be impeached and removed from office. The same is the case for a Pastor.
The only thing the Congregation was involved in and voted on was picking deacons. We do not see anything else in Scripture. The US is basically the first democracy in recent times and even it is a democratic Republic. No true democracy works.
The truth is that the church is to be elder ruled. No way around it I can see.
When the N.T. speaks on elder rule, elders is plural. So, the role of pastor is not a C.E.O. position. Quite the opposite.
I would encourage people to study what John Piper has to say about biblical eldership. He is totally against the pastor as C.E.O. model.
Also on matters of Church discipline (see Matthew 18).
True, but that may not fall under what we call government. Remember a brother was not to take a matter to the secular court and from the context of Matt 18 it appears that there is a "suit" issue going on rather than a moral issue.
In 1 Cor 5, Paul instructs that the fornicator be set out of the church, but it is not clear if the elders did this or they had a Matt 18 meeting. Paul judged him as being worthy of booting out and he was an elder of elders so to speak. Then he goes into the legal matters discourse.
In body analogy, the moral issue thing may be equal to popping a zit or cutting out a hang nail. The head dictates the process and the body participates, but the head makes the determination to perform the surgery.
This is an interesting issue but realtively moot since few if any actually practice it in any form.
It occurs to me, since you did not answer my
question, that you may have thought me rude.
That was not my intention; I really wanted to know
what you consider appropriate to demand of one
in your church. It just seems to me that if people
are studying and doing what the Bible says, the
pastor would not need to do this. Is that basically
Abiyah, I do apologize. My wife was in labor yesterday and I had limited time here to do anything.
1. Scripture speaks of false teachers. Job no. 1 for an elder is to preach/teach correct doctrine. The people need to know it so well that false teachers can be spotted instantly.
The elders are to look after the well being of the body. If there is sin that is infecting the church, they need to deal with it. In 1 Cor. 5, a man was in sexual immorality. Paul was grieved that they did not kick him out. Btw, in matters of sexual sin, there is no Matt. 18. It is to be immediate and as severe as necessary.
2. Those are two areas. Both are to be enforced through church discipline. That is all I have time to say now.
Sorry 'bout that.
LABOR? IS THAT ALL? HAVE I NO IMPORTANCE
IN YOUR LIFE?????
You have better keep us updated now!!!
Therein is the rub. The congregation cannot spot false teachers. John Hagee has a plan of salvation for the Gentiles and another one for te Jews contrary to the entire NT and yet he is very very popular. If they cannot pick out such glaring errors they will never spot the innuendos or doublespeak.
The problem with elders appointing elders is that you canget a good ole boy club going and have a massive disaster like the Catholics or a bishop that has no clue how to match people and put a guy in the country that needs tobe in the city and the reverse. Yet, the congregations make as serious mistakes and often worse. Oh, the tales I could tell you about candidating!!!