Democrat Politicians

Discussion in 'Politics' started by OldRegular, Dec 23, 2005.

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What do Democrat Politicians love most?

  1. Power

    100.0%
  2. The United States

    0 vote(s)
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  1. OldRegular

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    Which do Democrat politicians love most?

    1. Power

    2. The United States
     
  2. Rocko9

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    This is so Lame!
    Taking a vote on Pepsi or Coke is more relevant.
     
  3. JamieinNH

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    Trolling not allowed..
     
  4. Baptist in Richmond

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    Does this really surprise you?
     
  5. hillclimber

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    Actually it is interesting....our perceptions.
     
  6. KenH

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    We really need to get past this Republican vs. Democrat obsession in this country. That's why we don't deal in any major way with any of the major problems in this country - Social Security, Medicare, outsourcing of jobs, the trade deficit, the federal deficit, spiraling health care costs, the energy crisis, etc.

    I'm glad I don't identify with any political party so that I can call a spade a spade and deal with the issues and not concern myself with whether "my party" is in power or whether "my party" or a member of "my party" is being criticized.
     
  7. hillclimber

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    As long as we have a democracy we will have the two party system. The only solution for Christians is to reassert our power in the Republican party, and try to keep our values in the forefront. Pulling out or trying to start a third party is an exercise in futility.
     
  8. KenH

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    Or how about conservative Christians not falling into the trap that African-Americans have fallen into by putting almost all their eggs in the Democratic Party basket? Both groups would be better off spreading their influence among all parties.

    And just because there are two major parties doesn't mean that I have to align myself with one or the other. I have voted for Democrats and Republicans in the past and I will probably do so in the future.
     
  9. JGrubbs

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    Our founding fathers never intended for us to have a democracy, and they never intended for us to be a "two party system". Our first president, George Washington, refused to join any political party, and warned us of the dangers of political parties in his farewell speech.

    We should never vote based on party, but always based on principles!

    "Duty is ours; results are God's"
    --John Quincy Adams

    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."
    --John Quincy Adams

    "...a Christian's decision should never be based upon the potential outcome of his decision, but upon the rightness of his decision."
    --Chuck Baldwin
     
  10. Brother James

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    Why Christians Should Not Vote
    Posted by Michael Bunker
    [email protected]

    “My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not. If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit: We shall find all precious substance, we shall fill our houses with spoil: Cast in thy lot among us; let us all have one purse: My son, walk not thou in the way with them; refrain thy foot from their path: For their feet run to evil, and make haste to shed blood” (Proverbs 1:10-16)

    October 25, 2004 – Well class it is time for another exciting lesson on examining presuppositions and premises. Since I emailed out my refutation of the “get out the vote” scam, several good brothers have sent me a popular quote from Noah Webster for my comment…

    “When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers, just men who will rule in the fear of God. The preservation of a republican government depends on the faithful discharge of this duty; if the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made not for the public good so much as for the selfish or local purposes. Corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizens will be violated or disregarded.

    If a republican government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the Laws.” (Noah Webster, History of the United States)

    Now, generally what happens is that this quote is appended to any broadly mailed statement urging “christians” to go out and vote. The hope is that the conscience of the one receiving the posting will be pricked, and considering it now a duty to God to go out and choose the lesser of all the available evils, the “christian” will trudge on down to the polling booth and pull the leaver (or write in the name) for Mr. Less Poison. But how many of us have stopped to consider the presuppositions behind this? How many have questioned those sending out these quotes as to their understanding of the underlying ideas and premises that originally supported the quotes? Let’s ask some questions, shall we?

    1.) When was this written? This quote was penned by Mr. Webster in 1832. Mr. Webster was born in 1758, prior to the foundation of the American Republic. He died in 1843, 17 years before every precept of that Republic was demolished by the war against the right of Southern secession. Mr. Webster understood that America was formed on the model of a Representative Republic and that the concept of an imperial “democracy” was tyrannical. The above quote cannot apply to what “America” is at all, since we are no longer a Representative Republic, and because the quote speaks of a Christian’s duty is TO PREVENT evil men from corrupting and destroying the system, not what a Christian’s duty is AFTER such corruption and destruction have already taken place.

    2.) What assumptions went in to Mr. Webster’s comments?

    a.) that we indeed lived in a Representative Republic,

    b.) that such corruptions he warns about have not already taken place,

    c.) that the Constitution as it existed in his day was still in force and was sufficiently protecting the right of the people to separate from that Union if it were to become destructive of the ends for which it had been created, and that there was still a mechanism for the proper redress of popular grievances.

    So, are these assumptions still valid today? Of course they are not.

    Now there are some insinuations made by those who push this idea, and believe me, I do not mean to lump everyone who is misusing this quote into one group, but there is the insinuation that those who recognize the true nature of the corruption in government are doing a greater disservice to the people (and in fact are sinning against God) by not continuing to participate in the sham they consider to be “representative government”. One of the insinuations is that somehow those of us who do not vote, are actually voting for whoever eventually wins, by robbing a vote from some other candidate who (they imply) might have won if more people like us had voted for that candidate. One man insinuated that I was personally going to be responsible for getting a Roman Catholic baby-killer (John Kerry) elected, because I am a “powerful voice in Christianity that a lot of people listen to”. This is rubbish, and only serves to continue to legitimize a failed system. By their stupid, twisted logic, all sorts of insane suppositions can be made. Let’s look at all the failed premises in his statement, then we will have fun using his fuzzy logic:

    1.) The Bible declares that God alone raises up and removes Kings, and that He alone is the “elector” and only His vote counts. Wicked people have wicked Kings, and righteous people have Righteous Kings. (Prov. 8:15)

    2.) No man can be elected to rule this or any country unless God has sovereignly provided for it.

    3.) The system has been devised to mute the voice of opposition. What we have is a bifurcated ONE PARTY SYSTEM.

    Both of the major parties have candidates who are and controlled surreptitiously by the Romanist Church. Both are Yale graduated Skull and Bonesman. Both are baby killers, and both are tools of Satan. A vote for any one of these men is a vote for a tool of Satan, and a vote for anyone else (by their own fuzzy logic) is therefore a vote for whoever wins. In fact, using their fuzzy logic, I can prove that by NOT writing in MY NAME for president, they actually are responsible for everything evil that is going to happen under the next president.

    Here is an exchange I had with a good friend who heard a “Christian leader” abusing his people with threats if they didn’t vote:

    Michael,

    I was flipping through the channels and ran across a preview of the John Ankerberg Show. Plainly stated by him: "it is a sin NOT to vote". It seems to most these days that it matters not that "Christians" are being used as a tool to win an election by polarizing them around a particular candidate's "assumed" views, when in reality both candidates share very similar societial and geo-political views.

    Ron

    Dear Ron,

    Of course these actions are designed to motivate voters to vote for the fascist/statist God-hater George Bush. But the same arguments are being made by others who have no intention of supporting either Bush or Kerry. It is this I would like to address.

    What we are seeing is no different than the Jewish police force under the authority of the Jewish "mayor" of the Warsaw ghettos, who worked on behalf of the Nazis to control the Jewish population until they could be carted off to camps. So called "Christian leaders" and others (some innocently, others not so much so) are trying to rally the "christian community" behind the concept that voting is a moral obligation (one by the way the anabaptists and many dissenters rejected). Many of these individuals are already reprobated (like the Jewish cops) and are directly serving the antichrist agenda, while others are really (although erroneously) convinced that it is a moral obligation in representative government for individuals to participate in the elective process.

    The problem is that they are ignorant. Some willingly, some not so much so. The elective process is a sham and enables our rebellious servants to lend credibility and legitimacy to their tyrannical schemes. While it is true that there may or may not have been a truly "christian" candidate in the race - the fact is that IF it is true that that candidate is truly a "christian" and wants to reform the system, he is ignorant of the fact that his candidacy and participation legitimizes a corrupt and failed political system that has enslaved millions to it's antichrist aims. Therefore he, and others like him, are ignorantly playing the role of the "christian cop" who is anesthetizing the people until they can be properly disposed of or marginalized. Also, many who innocently but ignorantly fall for these emotional (but not biblical) claims of the morality of voting are now motivated by two contrary emotions that paralyze them against truly effective and definitive action:

    1.) They are angry at people like you and me because of our defeatist attitude... why if they could only have motivated more of us to vote for the right Jewish mayor, the Nazi's would have backed off their globalist plans.

    2.) They are (like us) saddened that the political system has failed to provide them redress of their grievances - and so they will soon fall victim to the motionless melancholy of which they are now acccusing us.

    All of this is really a heart check... let's examine presuppositions and premises and we'll get closer to the heart of the matter.

    1.) True Christian or no, they really want to fix the system to prolong it... because of the carnal benefit the current system provides as far as peace and safety. They cry "peace, peace when there is no peace".

    2.) The cost of true biblical freedom is too dear, while true freedom is not dear enough. Best (they think) to pay the jailer and rattle our chains in disgust than to protest unto death or break the bonds.

    3.) In their hearts they are still "Americans" first and Christians second or third. Their obligation to truth and the Gospel fall behind their self-imposed obligations to a state that rejects their beliefs and operates contrarily to it.

    4.) In their hearts they are the ones who have lost all hope, because they cling to a dream that never was and never will be. That dream world gives them comfort as the storm clouds grow around them. They cannot see heaven, so they can only dream about a semblance of heaven on earth.

    It is sad, but it is true. And all we can do is continue to shout that the emperor has no clothes until they silence us or let us go from their presence. May their chains lay softly upon them. Fear of freedom never freed anyone.

    Your servant in Christ Jesus,

    Michael Bunker

    Let me set up a scenario for you Constitution Party members and other third party pushers. Let’s make some assumptions. Let’s assume for a minute you are right. And let us assume that it was constitutional for the leadership of “America” to get involved with the United Nations in the first place. And let us assume that your other false assumptions about voting obligations are true. Here is the scenario, and I will list the important points:

    1. The United Nations, through sleazy bureaucratic actions, twisting of legal interpretations and sly manipulations, actually succeeds in portraying itself as the legitimate World Government, superior to all national governments.

    2. The UN, then, working with traitors within the United States government, has the United States brought into the “Union” of the UN as a full member state.

    3. The US, at some point in the future, seeing that its sovereignty is being abused and cast away, holds a popular election in the US. The subject of that “election” is whether the US should remove itself from the UN. The US overwhelmingly votes to remove itself from its voluntary participation in the United Nations.

    4. The UN, then, raises a worldwide army to forcibly keep the US in the UN as a member state and political and economic slave. The UN succeeds in using warfare to force allegiance to the UN Charter and to all UN mandates.

    5. The UN sends an occupying military government to govern the US until which time the people are subdued and willing to “voluntarily” participate in “democracy” according to UN mandates.

    6. Many years later, some weak-minded sycophant, pretending to be a Christian patriot announces that anyone who doesn’t “vote” for whatever ungodly tyrant is running for UN Secretary General is sinning against God.

    Sound farfetched? Folks, this is what happened to the South in the Civil War! This is what happened to MY Republic of Texas! Texas was illegally brought into the Union. Then, after the people of Texas voted (in their supposed Representative Republic) to secede from the Union, they were forced through military might to remain in that wicked Union. Carpetbaggers and Military Governments were sent south to break the will of the people, and to rule with an iron fist until the people were subdued and willing to “voluntarily” submit to unrighteous authority. I don’t know one “patriot” or patriot leader who would try to force-feed me the idea that I am obligated to vote for UN Secretary General, but he uses the same logic as every other antichrist pawn when trying to force-feed me the idea that I am obliged to vote for US President.

    I understand that many of you really believe that one or another of the third party candidates is “really a Christian who believes” in the same things that I do. But he cannot believe the same things that I do or he would not be legitimizing an occupying government by attempting to take the reigns of it. He cannot believe what I do and still legitimize the lie that this is a representative Republic. I’m not trying to condemn Christian men who are in error… I am trying to SHOW them their error, which is my Christian duty. I have a duty to separate from ungodliness, not prolong its existence by legitimizing it. I have a duty to reject tyrannical governments and not try to fix them. In fact, using proper pre-suppositional thinking, I have to challenge another insinuation made by the same people. I have heard it said by many Godly men of the past that a Representative Republic is the only Biblical form of government, and to this I must respectfully disagree. The only Biblical form of Government (validated by God) that I find in scripture is Monarchy. Now in this particular form of Representative Republic founded on this continent, the original concept was that it would be a Monarchy of the people, and that we would elect NOT LEADERS, but SERVANTS to carry out the expressed will of the people. The people are the King, and government is the servant. Now, I cannot find one command in scripture that a King “vote” or choose between rebellious servants, rather I find clearly that a righteous King is obligated to capture and PUNISH rebellious servants. Why can’t I find anyone who is promoting THAT as a political platform?

    Some of the worst offenders in this “get out the Christian vote” scam are those in the so-called “Patriot” and “Militia” movement, and I will save my harshest condemnations for them. Some (particularly who are pushing the Constitution Party) have hinted that their readers should examine closely anyone who is encouraging people NOT to vote. They insinuate that the ones telling you NOT to vote must be working for “the feds” and want to silence freedom loving “Amerikans”. Listen to their logic, and see how overwhelming it is… Since a man (say… Michael Bunker) is telling you not to vote, he is getting you to DO NOTHING, because when you don’t vote, you lose your place at the table and your voice in the system. He must be working for them. It is people like Michael Bunker who want you to stay in slavery, because you will have no choice in what happens to you!

    (Smile crosses my face)

    Oh man, I wish ONE of these fools would debate me. Just one. I’m taking all comers. At this point in the debate I would turn to the challenger and I would say this…

    “I’m glad you put forth the criteria, because I intend to hold you to it. It is your assertion, using your logic that whoever gets the people to DO NOTHING must be a “FED” or a “plant” because they are silencing the people who should be heard. I’m glad you believe it, because I believe it too. Now let’s look at just who’s philosophy gets people to DO NOTHING…

    The modernist “get out the vote” philosophy convinces people that they are participating in a great democracy by voting, even if in reality they are legitimizing a failed system, because no matter who they vote for we know that one of the two handpicked, empty suit puppets in the bifurcated one-party system will be elected. The voter actually accomplishes NOTHING but to fool himself and further the cause of legitimizing a wicked system and allowing it to become more entrenched. You are teaching people to VOTE instead of DOING.

    Now Michael Bunker teaches men and women to SEPARATE completely from that wicked, ungodly, Antichrist system. I teach them to actively separate from the wicked government and government run churches. I am teaching people to DO SOMETHING. There is one inalienable right that they can never take away from you, and that is your right to refuse to participate even unto death. If Christians would separate into biblical, agrarian, Christian communities (like the Puritans and Pilgrim’s of old), they would soon see the flawed, lying political system for what it is. So I ask the people, who is it that wants you to do NOTHING? Why, my accusers want you to DO NOTHING by voting and legitimizing the system. Now, they are the ones that said that anyone who encouraged you to do nothing MUST be a FED or a FED sympathizer, right? Let’s hold them to it. I say, using their logic that any man, good or bad, who is encouraging you to vote in this corrupt, tyrannical system, and is using “Christianity” as a basis for his argument, needs to repent publicly and apologize to the people he has deceived. I am teaching people to DO and not VOTE.”

    Do not allow people to use the words of Noah Webster to legitimize this government. Noah Webster would have raised an army against this government already, just as he supported the army that was raised against a similar tyrannical government in his own day. Ignorance of history is no excuse for the mental tyranny being used to weigh us down today. A man who wants you IN this system of government is NOT your friend or ally, no matter how he shrouds himself in Christian terminology and quotes.

    Let me say this. In all of history, no despotic, broken, wicked political system has been cleaned up or overthrown through voting. Revolutions take action, and revolutions are bloody things. If you want to maintain the crooked system, then go vote. If you want to challenge the system, and if you want a revolution, then you must reject this slave-mind mentality and move towards a total separation from that system.

    A class in Presuppositional Thinking or “Checking the Premise” would help us all move forward boldly and definitively today. Too many are swayed by nice speeches, peppered with good quotes.

    Your servant in Christ Jesus,



    Michael Bunker
     
  11. KenH

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    If Michael Bunker or anyone else doesn't want to vote, then they don't have to vote.

    As for me, since my brother and my brother-in-law in Vietnam and my grandnephew currently in Iraq(as well as the tens of millions of others who have served in our armed forces) have put their lives on the line to protect my constitutional rights, including the right to vote, I will vote.
     
  12. carpro

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    Near as I can tell, Christians have no influence in the democrat party at all. Christians who vote for democrats have to ignore a lot of non-Christian goals in their party plank.

    Wouldn't trying to spread your influence there be a waste of time and effort?
     
  13. KenH

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    No. Otherwise, when the Democratic Party takes over the Congress and the White House, then conservative Christians will feel like they are without influence in Washington, just as African-Americans feel like they are without influence with the GOP in control of the Congress and the White House now.
     
  14. SeekingTruth

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    Has anyone noticed that when asked about the true beliefs of the Democrat party, many Democrats become angry, snide, sarcastic, etc. with their comments. Why not just cast your vote and if you desire add a rationale for the vote.

    It is my opinion, that Dems love power to the point that their every action is geared toward regaining or increasing their power regardless of the consequences. Notice, I said opinion.
     
  15. KenH

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    As it is also for the Reps.

    Politicians are politicians, regardless of the party label.
     
  16. Magnetic Poles

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    This poll is like:

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet?

    [ ] Yes
    [ ] No
     
  17. hillclimber

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    Our founding fathers never intended for us to have a democracy, and they never intended for us to be a "two party system". Our first president, George Washington, refused to join any political party, and warned us of the dangers of political parties in his farewell speech.

    We should never vote based on party, but always based on principles!

    "Duty is ours; results are God's"
    --John Quincy Adams

    "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."
    --John Quincy Adams

    "...a Christian's decision should never be based upon the potential outcome of his decision, but upon the rightness of his decision."
    --Chuck Baldwin
    </font>[/QUOTE]I couldn't agree more. A democracy is a terrible system for all but a totally sold out to God Christian nation, which doesn't exist.
     
  18. hillclimber

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    I know you will, as your values change with every new accusation of the leftists.
     
  19. Bro. Curtis

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    I hated the poll. Anyone who tells me Joe Lieberman loves power over his country is nuts.
     
  20. JamieinNH

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    As it is also for the Reps.

    Politicians are politicians, regardless of the party label.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Isn't that the truth! That is why I believe simple "Polls" such as this doesn't do us any good. How can we ever come together as Christians and make things better when we can't seem to tget past the Reps vers Dems argument?

    Jamie
     

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