denominations

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Brian, Nov 13, 2001.

  1. Brian

    Brian
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    O.K. Since I asked the question. How many kinds of Baptist are there? And please no abbreviations. Some use different words that use the same letters. Also if you could point to information about them. Prefferably on the 'net. Thanks Brian
     
  2. John Wells

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  3. Brian

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    Tahnks its a Great start! I think that with the one I have from other sources will be sufficent for my study. I have 35 listed but some seem to be different names for the same groups I'll cull this down to the most common by attainible membership numbers. Though I am by no means able at this time to put the effort into each of these groups that rlvaughn put into the Landmark Baptists. And will use his information if it's ok with him. I just feel a need to dispel any preconcieved notions I have about some of these groups. BTW one interesting group that uses the Baptist name are nicknamed the "No Hellers" believing that since Christ died that none should parish none will and that ALL will go to heaven. Which I've been told is very similar to hyper-calvinism. Which again leads to my study....

    [ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Brian ]
     
  4. rlvaughn

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    Brian, here is another topic on Baptist Groups in the USA. Read the entire forum; on the second page there are some numbers. Best current book of Baptist statistics is Baptists Around the World by Albert W. Wardin, Jr., 1995, Broadman & Holman. The number of different Baptist bodies in the United States is a little over 50, depending on what standards or criteria you use to define a distinct Baptist body (e.g. should the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship be counted as a separate body? Most of those churches are still in the SBC).

    I don't know the purpose of your study or how much time & money you can put in on it. But, if you can, buy Baptists Around the World. There is an entire book written on the No-Hellers. They are a "version" of Primitive Baptists that believe in Universal Redemption (not that all can be saved, but that all will be saved). The book is In the Hands of a Happy God by Professor Howard Dorgan of Appalachia State University. I believe it is published by University of Tennesse Press, but will have to check to be sure.

    Feel free to use any of my information that is helpful to you; and contact me by e-mail if you want details that it would be awkward to get into on the Baptist Board. Best wishes in your research.

    An addition: check out the Baptist Heritage website. They have a section on national Baptist bodies that will make a very nice printout if you have Adobe Acrobat. [Though I personally think it needs a little interpretation because they count some ethnic bodies related to the ABCUSA as separate bodies, and there are also several bodies that are left off.]

    [ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  5. Brian

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    The purpose of my study is purely personal information. And I have very little in the way of time or money for the project. [​IMG]
     
  6. DocCas

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    I recommend two books. "Handbook of Denominations in the United States" by Frank Mead and Samuel Hill, which lists all denominations presently existing in the US, and includes, under "Baptist" the following:

    1. American Baptist Association.
    2. American Baptist Churches/USA
    3. Baptist Bible Fellowship, International
    4. Baptist General Conference
    5. Baptist Missionary Association of America
    6. Bethel Ministerial Association.
    7. Central Baptist Association
    8. Conservative Baptist Association of America
    9. Duck River (and Kindred) Associations of Baptists (Baptist Church of Christ)
    10. Free Will Baptist
    11. General Association of Regular Baptist Churches
    12. General Baptist
    13. General Conference of the Evangelical Baptist Church, Inc.
    14. Landmark Baptist
    15. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc.
    16. National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.
    17. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America
    18. National Primitive Baptist Convention of the USA
    19. North American Baptist Conference
    20. Primitive Baptist
    21. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc.
    22. Reformed Baptist
    23. Separate Baptists in Christ (General Association of Separate Baptists)
    24. Seventh Day Baptist General Conference
    25. Southern Baptist Convention
    26. United Baptist
    27. United Free Will Baptist

    Of the above, some will be represented by more than one denominational organization and some will be spread through other denominational organizations (such as Primitive Baptist, Landmark Baptist, and Reformed Baptist).

    Note also there are other denominational associations too small to be listed in Mead/Hill's work such as the Hungarian Baptist's represented by our webmaster and Brother Barnabas Halo. There are also several thousand, perhaps tens of thousands of unaffiliated Baptist churches not represented by any denominational or associational group at all.

    After reading the above book I would then recommend "Dictionary of Baptists in America" by Bill Leonard, Ed. for a run down of the men, organizations, and institutions of some of the above denominations, including Baptist organizations no longer extant.

    Sounds like a rather big field of study! [​IMG]
     
  7. Brian

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    Maybe too big for me right now! In just a few short weeks (9). I'll start attending classes at BCF in Graceville Fl. So much to do and so very little time to do it in!
     
  8. Michael Wrenn

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    Are the "No Hellers" Calvinists?
     
  9. Brian

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    I don't know yet. My imperfect understanding of hyper-calvanism is that Jesus only died for those who will be saved -the elect. Also since God predestined and for knew that election no matter what the individual does they will be drawn to and accept Christ. Which in my mind is opposed to the free will humans have. Like when we choose to disobey God and sin. If what I think is right about hyper-calvinism then yes. I'm told that the no hellers take that alittle farther and that since Jesus died that none should parish evry one will be drawn and accept. Kinda eliminates the need for personal evangelism huh?
     
  10. rlvaughn

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    Here is an excerpt from Stoney Creek Primitive Baptist Church - a "No-Heller" Meetinghouse by Howard Dorgan:

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Primitive Baptist Universalism cannot be given a full examination in this short essay, but the central tenets of the theology can be compressed into the following doctrinal statements: (1) Christ’s atonement was for the sins of ALL humankind, past, present, and future, thus becoming just as unavoidable as were the stains of Adam’s original transgression; (2) hell does exist, but solely as a factor of the temporal world, will ALL sin being punished in this temporal world; (3) "Christ’s Church" was "elected" before the beginning of time, but the members of that "Church:"-the Primitive Baptist Universalist-possess no final advantage over the nonelect, since heaven will be for ALL and will be experienced in a totally egalitarian eternity; however, (4) throughout the temporal existence the "Elect" will serve as God’s witnesses and as the preservers of His earthly righteousness; (5) sin, punishment, death, and "Satan" are only present-world entities, ceasing to exist after temporal termination and the "Resurrection"; therefore, (6) there will be no hell in the afterlife.

    Because Primite Baptist Universalist do believe in hell in the temporal world, they strongly reject the "No-Heller" label that others have give them. As a result of that rejection, the present writer tries to avoid that title, unless it is placed within quotation marks. The proper appellation for this faith is Primitive Baptist Universalism, PBU for short. Nevertheless, it must be recognized immediately that all other Primitive Baptist groups simply do not accept the PBU faith as being " Primitive," arguing that one essential feature of Primitive Baptist theology is some version of John Calvin’s limited atonement doctrine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I have some minutes of these "no-heller" associations, and, by their articles of faith, one would be hard pressed to identify them as being any different from other Primitive Baptists. But they definitely are different, and their theology is completely outside the realm of standard Primitive Baptist thought. And though the PBU's have a form of election, their universal redemption theology is certainly opposed to the limited atonement theology of John Calvin. Yet in categorizing these PBU's I personally have continued to identify them with the broader Primitive Baptist movement.

    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Maybe too big for me right now! In just a few short weeks...So much to do and so very little time to do it in!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Brian, if the Lord lets you live, you have your lifetime to do it. I have been working on Baptist groups for almost twenty years now and have developed this motto: "Baptist groups multiply and divide faster than you can count them!" As soon as I think I have found them all, a new one begins or an old unknown one is discovered (they knew they were there all the time :cool: ).

    [ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]
     
  11. Michael Wrenn

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    Do the PBu's have a headquarters?

    I actually prefer their doctrine to that which says that God will roast the vast multitude of humanity forever with no way out.
     
  12. rlvaughn

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    No headquarters. Their only organization beyond local church, that I know of, is 4 local associations - Elkhorn #1, Elkhorn #2, Three Forks of Powell's River, and Washington District. I think the churches are in TN & VA and/or maybe WV. Jeff Weaver would probably have greater personal knowledge of these associations, since he is in that same area.
     
  13. Jeff Weaver

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    Hi folks

    Yes, I know about these folks. There are actually 6 associations of these folks, the four Robert mentioned, and the Stony Fork in Southwest Virginia, and one side of the Union Association in eastern Kentucky. The two Elkhorn associations are in Southern West Virginia, the Washington is in southwest Virginia save one church in Tennessee. The Three Forks of Powell's River is Virginia and Tennessee. One problem with Howard Dorgan's work is that he omits lots of details that IMO he should include, in the Children of a Happy God book, and his others as well. BTW, I am an alumus of Appalachain State University. A great friend of mine held the chair when I was there that Dorgan now holds.

    Some of the churches in these associations share meeting houses with Primitive Baptists of the "heller" variety.

    The sotry behind this group is rather interesting, if any one is interested I will tell it, if not, then no worries.

    Jeff
     
  14. Chris Temple

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian:
    I don't know yet. My imperfect understanding of hyper-calvanism is that Jesus only died for those who will be saved -the elect. Also since God predestined and for knew that election no matter what the individual does they will be drawn to and accept Christ. Which in my mind is opposed to the free will humans have. Like when we choose to disobey God and sin. If what I think is right about hyper-calvinism then yes. I'm told that the no hellers take that alittle farther and that since Jesus died that none should parish evry one will be drawn and accept. Kinda eliminates the need for personal evangelism huh?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    [sigh] Yes, Brian, you indeed have a misunderstanding of Calvinism and hyper-calvinism.

    For a not-so-quick lesson on Biblical Calvinism, see

    Predestination Freewill vs. Predestination Calvinism vs. Arminianism and Hyper-Calvinism Heresy :D
     
  15. Michael Wrenn

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    Brian,

    Actually, you understand Calvinism perfectly. What you said goes right along with the Five Points of Calvinism. Some who claim to be Calvinists are not consistent Calvinists.
     
  16. Michael Wrenn

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    Jeff,

    Yes, I am interested; so, please tell it, if you will.
     
  17. Jeff Weaver

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    Okey Doke. Here we go.

    In 1924 a minister in the Washington District Primitive Baptist Association, (which has churches in Russell, Tazewell, Buchanan, Dickenson, and Wise Counties) named Elder Lake Evans had a son who was executed for a particularly heinous murder. The son was apparently in every instance the personification of evil, and died cursing, etc. At any rate it was common belief that the boy ended up in hell. It was too much for the older Evans to take, and as the saying goes he searched the scripture and latched on to the verse "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

    So, according to this theology, if the Lord was not willing that any should perish, none would. You might have to be a Primitive Baptist to understand the undercurrents of belief we have to know where he was coming from on this one.

    At any rate, Elder Evans was very popular in his day and convinced a lot of folks he was right. Of course this caused a division, resulting in "hellers" and "no-hellers." In this division, The Washington District, Union District, and Elkhorn Districts divided over the issue, and the entirity of the Three Forks of Powell's Valley and the Stony Creek Districts accepted Evans' theology. Subsequently this group has splintered into three factions. One group has one part of the Elkhorn, the Washington District, and the Three Forks of Powell's River. One side of the Elkhorn stands alone, and the third group is the Stony Creek and Union Associations. Altogether there are about 35 churches with about 2000 members. All of these churches with a couple of exceptions are in the coal mining district of central Appalachia or within an hour's drive of coal country. Some of these churches share meeting houses with the "hellers" and meet on alternate weekends. Most Appalachian Primitive Baptists still meet on Saturday and Sunday. The meeting times of churches in a community or association are staggered in such a way that it is possible to attend six different churches per weekend.

    Hope it helps.

    Jeff
     
  18. ellis

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    Jeff,

    Do you know what part of West Virginia these churches are located. I have some family members there who are Primitive Baptist and haven't had a lot of contact with them. I'm working on some family heritage at the moment, and would be interested to know where the churches are, which churches, specifically are in which group. I'd like to visit a couple of them this summer as I am out scouring church graveyards and family cemetaries for geneological information.

    Thanks.
     
  19. rlvaughn

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    Brian (and all), please note that I have made a correction to a mistake I made in my first post. The book I intended to recommend by Albert W. Wardin, Jr. is Baptists Around the World instead of Baptist Atlas. The Baptist Atlas is also by Wardin and is a good book with good information. But it is somewhat dated (1980) as far as denominational and statistical information is concerned, and all of this is covered in the newer Baptists Around the World book. Sorry for the mix-up.
     
  20. TomVols

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    Rlvaughn,
    Okay. I suppose we can let it slide just this once :D
     

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