depravity from another angle

Ray's problem has always been that he gives no distinction between those whom Jesus Christ actually atoned for and those whom God left to their sins.

He is a universalist, through and through.

 

pinobaptist,

Your statement is totally incorrect.

Proportionately, I believe more people will be in Hell than will enter Heaven. [Matthew 7:13-14] And also, John 3:18 speaks of those who are 'not condemned' and are fit for Heaven and those who are 'condemned already' because they do not believe in Jesus and, therfore, are on their way to Hell.

This is hardly a Universalist postion.

Sinners are elected because of their faith in Jesus; this is the Arminian view of theology and is the correct understanding of Scripture.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Will you finally use Scripture to show us this teaching? Every previous time I have asked, you have refused. Please show us from Scripture where election is based on faith.

 

He has refused to use Scripture to show us this teaching because Scripture does not teach that election is conditional upon faith. That might be the Arminian view of theology, but Arminianism is the very life and soul of Popery.

 

Ray Berrian said:

Thank you. Now it is a matter of record that this is what you believe.

 

Brother Aki:

Greetings.

BROTHER AKI SAID: 2. imputation of Adam's sin to each human being - this is what got everyone worthy of condemnation since birth. this one is left to be explained. what then is the PURPOSE that EACH ONE is imputed of Adam's sin?

BROTHER JOE'S REPLY: God answered this already, please study the entire passage below Brother:

"21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, AND TO MAKE KNOWN HIS POWER, endured with much longsuffering the VESSELS OF WRATH FITTED TO DESRUCTION:
23 AND THAT HE MIGHT MAKE KNOWN THE RICHES OF HIS GLORY ON THE VESSELS OF MERCY, which he had before prepared UNTO GLORY,
24 Even us, whom he hath called..." (Romans 9:21-24)

This passage tells us that in God's judgement of the nonelect God makes known his power,and in his elect children he makes known his mercy which brings him glory. His children also glorify and magnify his name.

By grace,

Brother Joe

 

Has anyone brought up accountability? Is not the entire human race, elect and non-elect accountable before God? Does not the bible prove that the entire race is accountable before God for sin? If this is the case, would it not be just for God to only save some? What is sin anyway? In my estimation "sin" is having the knowlegde of good and evil, yet choosing evil. If you choose evil over good just one time, God's edict stands and "surely you will die".
If a lion kills a man because he is hungry, is it a sin? No, it is not, because the lion does not have the "knowledge of good and evil". Now, if a man kills another man, is it sin? Yes, why?

 

I also add the word "guilty" as well as accountable to my prior post.

 

Yeah, you're right. I guess we just discovered God lied when He said "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked".

I don't know how else Brother Joe or others here can explain to you that no one deserved mercy not even the elect and it is just a miracle of God's mercy that He chose to save many instead of condemn all.

Now, do those who have been elected to salvation have any reason to thumb their nose at those whom God has by-passed ? They were simply recipients of God's mercy, otherwise they could also be well on the other side.

Do those on the other side have any reason to point their fingers at God and blame Him for their condemnation ?

We could go around in circles forever in this thing, and you, my countryman, no disrespect intended, will say, good answer, and turn right back and say God was unfair. Kawawa naman sila.

 

Only if you believe we are saved by a free will choice. If election, not free will, is true, then as you said, "they were simply recipients of God's mercy, otherwise they could also be well on the other side."

Under no circumstances can anyone do that, whether they believe in Arminianism/Pelagianism/Calvinism.

This is one of the most serious errors of Arminianism and Pelagianism. They believe that salvation is "offered", and therefore must be offered to all otherwise God is unfair. To put the error more clearly, they believe that if God is a fair god, then EVERYONE DESERVES to be offered salvation. That is as humanist a doctrine as one can get, as well as being oxymoronic -- as it obliges God to provide the offer of unmerited favor to everyone who does not merit favor. Such is the twisted humanist logic of Arminians/Pelagians.

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

 

Mark 16:16, John 1:12, John 5:24, John 6:35, Acts 2:21, Romans 5:1, I Corinthians 3:11-12a, II Corinthians 5:17, Hebrews 4:3 just for starters indicates that those who believe is Jesus become the elect, not unless you believe that those who receive Christ are not going to be saved.

The Godhead does not hassle and hustle sinners into becoming elect ones, as Calvin has thought. The Spirit of God may hassle and hustle sinners toward coming to Jesus, but without their cognitive decision to welcome Christ into their lives, He will not force any sinner to be one of His elect.

People smear the Name of God when they portray Him as the autocratic, Puppeteer who pulls the strings and walks some off to Heaven and the majority to Hell. This is an unthinkable concept about the living and true God.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

Someone has said, 'This is one of the most serious errors of Arminianism and Pelagianism. They believe that salvation is "offered", and therefore must be offered to all
otherwise God is unfair. To put the error more clearly, they believe that if
God is a fair god, then EVERYONE DESERVES to be offered salvation.'

Ray: 'Biblical theology endorses Arminianism. Throughout the O.T. God is spoken of as a just God. Pick up a theology book and study the Divine Justice of God. He is a fair God and not wishing that any should perish. [I Timothy 2:5-6; II Peter 3:9; Revelation 22:17] The call goes out to all sinners; those who believe become His elect forever. Those who reject Him until the hour of death, end up in Hell/the non-elect. God in His omniscience knows just who will be lost and all those who will become adopted into the family of God. God know everything.'

You said, 'That is as humanist a doctrine as one can get, as well as being oxymoronic -- as it obliges God to provide the offer of unmerited favor to everyone who does
not merit favor. Such is the twisted humanist logic of Arminians/Pelagians.'

Ray: Humanistic theology came directly from the pen of Augustine and was later systematized by John Calvin and even some Protestant and non-Catholics swallowed their Catholic error, 'hook, line and sinker' and now on top of that error deny that they have allied themselves with early Roman Catholic theology. And as someone else said that Biblical theology is also found, in this matter, also in modern Catholicism. At least they evolved toward this truth while '5 pointers' elect to remain in falsehood. The God of Justice has in John 1:12 and John 3:16 opened the atonement, salvation and the Savior to all sinners.

I will agree with you that none of us sinners are worthy of His mercy and yet He has pointed in His Word the truth and the way into everlasting life, through belief in His Son, our Lord. [I John 5:12-13, 20f]

I John 5:20f 'This is the true God, and eternal life.'

Berrian, Th.D.

 

My advice is for you to put down your theology books and pick up a Bible and find out the truth.

 

But he won't, Nick. His eyes are heavy with humanist scales, praising God with his lips but having his heart far from Him, puffed up with his pride, thinking he serves God and worships the Creator by calling God sovereign and explaining away that sovereignty in humanistic level and philosophy.

The Th.D. after his name is his own downfall.

 

Well put. I happen to agree.

 

I'll tell you what, Aki. Take your wife and go camping in the mountains sometime. Both of you should take a nice long hike in the woods. Let's assume a bear sees your wife and misinterprets something she does as a threat. Now this bear is running at your wife, claws ready to rip her to shreds. Your wife yells to you, "Aki, Aki, shoot it! It's going to kill me!"

I'm sure you'll say, "No, it would be an injustice to shoot it. After all, the bear is just a victim of how God made it. It's not the bear's fault that he was born to kill people when he thinks he's being provoked."

This analogy brought to you by PETA.

 

Someone said, 'My advice is for you to put down your theology books and pick up a Bible
and find out the truth.'

Ray: 'Cute! I use as much or more Scripture and explain it more than anyone else on this board. And like I said, 'God of justice is explained clearly in both Testaments.' [Deuteronomy 10:17 & Romans 2:11]

The Lord does not favor one sinner over another. If you believe in Unconditional Election you have been going to the wrong church.

Deuteronomy says, 'The Lord . . . . is a great God, mighty and terrible; Who regards not persons . . . . ' Understand?