Determining anothers salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by mont974x4, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. mont974x4

    mont974x4
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    In a thread in the politics section the issue of which presidents have been Christians is being discussed. The general feeling at this point of the discussion is that no one can know if someone else is saved or not. I disagree.

    For one thing, Scripture tells us to examine ourselves to be sure we are of the faith. 1 John was written so we can examine ourselves and know if we are saved. If we can look at Scripture and look at our life and determine that we are saved it stands to reason that others can do the same.

    Scripture also gives us a list of qualifications for elders. Paul told Timothy that it was not to be a new convert. That means that a determination had to be made as to whether or not the man in question was saved. Others had to be able to see evidence, or fruit (for example, fruit in keeping with repentance).

    In Acts 6 we find the account of deacons being called to minister to the widows. These were to be men, according to verse 3, were to be men full of the Spirit and of good reputation. That means others had to be able to determine whether or not they were saved.


    I know this is not a popular thing to say. We have been led astray by a misunderstanding of what it means to love others and a misquoting and misapplication of Matthew 7:1 that says to "judge not lest ye be judged". We need to keep reading that chapter. A discerning of what is and what is not sin is required. A denial of sin on ourselves, and in others, is dangerous. Church discipline requires the examination of people and events. The beginning of this discipline is the determination of whether or not we are dealing with a brother or not.

    We are told to reject the false teacher and that implies a rejection of the false convert based on their acceptance of a different gospel.

    A careful, prayerful, evaluation must occur and it must be done through the lens of Scripture.

    Perhaps so many churches are on dangerous ground because they fail in this. We have bought a lie that we are to have a spirit of unity at all costs. The truth is we are to have unity in the Spirit, and at a high cost. Also, many are given pulpits and opportunity to teach others who have not been properly assessed. The foundation of the Christian character required for church leadership is that relationship with Christ. We lack a fear of God and rather fear men.
     
  2. saturneptune

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    This is not an issue of lacking a fear of God and a fear of man. This is an issue of being able to discern at the same ability as the Lord. You are probably right, there is a 99+% chance you are right that Obama is lost, but you do not know for sure 100% as the Lord does.

    You might come to the conclusion, as driving by a bar, that if you see someone staggering out one night and falling into the gutter that the person is lost. It could be the person had a situation in his life for one night, and this is what you observed. He might be a better servant of Christ than any of us. By the same token, you might know someone who has not missed church in fifty years, is a deacon, SS teacher, etc., had never said an unkind thing to you, but is lost as Adolph Hitler, because you failed to pick up on his true alligence in life.
     
  3. Revmitchell

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    I disagree and it is because God has communicated his judgment in His word.
     
  4. saturneptune

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    I respect your opinion, and see the logic. To me, the key of what you said is God communicated his judgement, not our perception. I will use me as an example, as to leave others out. Can you tell right now if I am saved or not based on my posts? If you met me eye to eye, and watched me attend church and my ministries, how long would it take you to be 100% sure I am saved? Beyond that, how much would you have to follow me around seven days a week to be sure?
     
  5. convicted1

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    Well, the Disciples failed, and failed miserably. When Jesus told them that someone that night would betray Him, no one pointed the finger at the culprit, Judas Iscariot, but asked, "Is it I?". Judas had fooled them, but not Jesus.


    There are many who have a "form of godliness, but deny the power thereof". We can not see into the heart of anyone, but God can, and does. If I have my concerns about someone's welfare towards God being their Saviour, I'll pray to God about that, and let Him deal with that person as He sees fit.
     
  6. Crabtownboy

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    Seems to me that we should examine our own spiritual welfare and not be concerned about judging others. Remember it was the self-righteous, critical judging Pharisees ... the fundamentalists of his day ... that Jesus came down hard on.

    It might be good to always keep in mind Matthew 7:1

     
  7. timf

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    Given that so many people are unsure of their own salvation, it would seem to follow that judging the salvation of others would be even more difficult.

    In regard to the subject of assurance of salvation, that Bible tells us that there is uncertainty and can be certainty. It is my contention that certainty is derived from Christian maturity. The closer we walk with our Savior and the more we become like Him, the more assurance we can draw from Him.

    1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

    Our association with other Christians is supposed to be suspended on the basis of their calling themselves Christian yet demonstrating obvious sin. We are not called to judge if they are Christian or not.

    Judging the salvation status of others invariably leads to measurement criteria that is of the flesh and we find what begins in Galatia ends with the Pharisees.
     
  8. Revmitchell

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    If you had posted pubically that all paths lead to God then it would be clear.
     
  9. annsni

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    I think it's easier to say that someone is "most likely" as opposed to being 100%. But I do think that we can absolutely say that someone is unsaved because of what they have said. I knew a woman who was very clearly unsaved - she was a pagan and followed Wiccan. But now? She is very clearly saved. There has been a 180 degree turn around in her life, she now renounces all of her former allegiances and is absolutely living her life for the Lord and leading others to Him.

    President Obama has stated his beliefs and while some are orthodox, his foundation is not. His political stance is very antibiblical and I just don't see how someone can be truly saved and yet make the decisions he has. From what he has said, and what he has done in office, I would say that President Obama is not saved.
     
  10. Revmitchell

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    And he has made it clear in public statements that he does not believe Jesus is the only way. Lost he is.
     
  11. annsni

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    Exactamundo!!!
     
  12. Oldtimer

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    OBAMA the Muslim - HIS OWN WORDS
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XE9mZCRX2mg&feature=related

    Obama Collective Salvation (I don't like the sound effects on this one, but it does show his words in context.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0crhth_g9E

    Obama Mocks & Attacks Jesus Christ And The Bible / Video / Obama Is Not A Christian http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi-V_ilJu0w&feature=related

    Obama Denies Jesus Again! 4/16/09
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqncQ85Q1qA&feature=related

    Michelle Obama Admits Barack Hussein Obama's Home Country is Kenya
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M7Rp_Ghv6k&feature=related

    Obama: "My Muslim Faith"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMUgNg7aD8M&feature=related
     
  13. Tom Butler

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    With regard to whether we can determine if someone is saved, we are not called to be mind readers, but we can be fruit inspectors.
     
  14. OldRegular

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    We can judge whether a person is living like a follower of Jesus Christ should live. The Apostle Paul made this judgment in 1 Corinthians 5. It is a different matter entirely to say whether someone is saved or not. Only God knows that!

    There are many people who believe all Roman Catholics are lost. I don't believe that any more. I find it difficult that anyone who has been saved by the Grace of God would support abortion in manner but I cannot say that they are lost!

    I am not 100% sure it is appropriate to say that all Mormons are lost. God will in His own time and in His own way save those he has chosen to salvation in Jesus Christ and that is a fact!
     
  15. Arbo

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    Both his statements and his positions show this. I fail to see how anyone cannot see it.
     
  16. Arbo

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    :thumbsup:
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Let me see.
    When was Christian living, righteous living, testimonial living, the gospel of a risen savior preached ?
    When was the doctrine of the existence of a living One God, holy and separate from all others taught, and the doctrine of hell, the lake of fire, heaven, earth, and everything else that everybody in this board, understands to a great or small measure, taught ?

    The existence of a Creator God was not known OUTSIDE of Israel, check your Bible. China was already extant in the time of the Old Testament, when Israel was born and even before but they worshipped many gods, you can say the same about India (which by the way was mentioned in the Old Testament), Japan, even this country, Europe.

    Now what is the point ?
    The point is that when YOU, or WE, for that matter, and NOT GOD, put REQUIREMENTS and QUALIFICATIONS on men by which they are saved and for US TO BELIEVE that they are saved, we just condemned all those that lived before the time or times IN THE WHOLE WORLD, when doctrine, righteous living, church memberships, denominations, gospel preaching was taught.

    ETERNAL SALVATION is passive to the people of God. It is something that God worked for in their behalf. A GIFT if you will to His people, and His people, according to the Bible, is found in every tribe, nation, tongue, kindred, and age, not just the Hebrew nation, not just the "Christian" nations, but in EVERY nation.

    When we say PASSIVE, that means the recipients DID NOT EVEN KNOW they were redeemed to Himself by the true God that created Heaven and Earth though they may have lived in pre-Abrahamic times, in pre-Job times, outside of Abram's and Job's countries (wherever Job's country may have been).

    They may have been bowing to the butts of their wives and husbands and calling these god, they may have cut wood and worshipped the images they fashioned as god (like Isaiah said, and, oh, yes, remember Abram before he became Abraham was an idolater, and so was Sarai), or they may not even be aware that there was even a God in heaven.

    Review the history of the Corinthian church in Acts and you will see that God told Paul not to leave yet because HE HAD MUCH PEOPLE THERE, in other words He had much sheep there that need to be brought to a KNOWLEDGE of their Savior and Lord.

    When people are brought the GOSPEL, then they are faced with TEACHING, and when people are TAUGHT, then they learn that God requires repentance, obedience, faithfulness, holy living, and all those other things that an incorrect division of the word says one must display in order for one to be saved, and which we now look for to say without batting an eyelash, he is heaven-bound, allelujah, and this one is hell-bound, shame, shame.

    And again, we may be wrong, and this is where "judge not" comes in. No one can judge the eternal destiny of anyone's soul based on that person's doctrine, theology, soteriology, righteous living, or lack of all these because salvation (the eternal one) is OF THE LORD, BY THE LORD, AND FROM THE LORD.

    But doctrine ? earthly conduct ? yes, those can be judged.
    So, is Obama a Christian ?
    Hell, no. That is IF one bases it on conduct, theology, creed, maybe even race.
    But is Obama a Christian ?
    I don't know, you don't know, and nobody knows.
    Who knows ?
    God knows.
    He is the owner of the Book of Life, on which He wrote the names of all His people, and He did the writing FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, before I disliked Obama.
    I wasn't there when the God of this Universe wrote the names in that book.

    So, you think you'll get flack for your piece ?
    Watch the fireworks on this one.
    Ya ain' seen none yet, friend.
    Ain' nothin' bring out the sarcasm and the "loving" hate in Baptist Board than the thought that salvation is ALL OF GOD, entirely PASSIVE to its recipient, and that there really ain' no such thing as getting people and souls saved for eternity for the simple reason that Christ already did that and no one can add or take to HIS GLORY.
     
  18. pinoybaptist

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    just as a follow up to what I've written. If there is any determination of salvation we can do, it is determination of one's GOSPEL salvation.
    When one comes under gospel preaching and teaching, professes to have been convicted by the Holy Spirit, and joins the church as a believer in Christ, a convert, then it is INCUMBENT and mandatory for such a one to repent and give evidence of grace in his life.
    If he does not, and continues to live his "old life", then one can suppose he was "not of us".
    But one can just suppose.

    For such a supposition we can point to the evidence of Scripture, which are those that you have stated in your post.
     
  19. mont974x4

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    I already addressed the common misapplication that verse.
     
  20. saturneptune

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    So how do you know how someone has "repented and given evidence of grace in his life." Do you follow this person around 24/7, or do you only see this person a couple hours a week at church?
     

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