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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by TaliOrlando, Sep 8, 2006.
Did Adam and Eve go to heaven?? What happened to those who died in the old testament??
No one went to heaven. All went to that other place that existed prior to Jesus opening the Gates of Heaven to all.
Was there hell back in the day?? or all that died went to a spot and then when Jesus came divided and put some in hell and some in heaven?
God doesn't change the rules for getting into Heaven. He only changes the rules for living in the covenant community on earth.
I've got one for you. Where does the Bible ever talk about someone going to heaven when he/she dies?
Tali about the OP(original post) that you posted...
I always thought that some were going to be with the Lord because the bible stories of Enoch (Gen 5:24) & Elijah (2Kings 2:11). And in the NT (Matt. 17) when Jesus was transfigured and the disciples wanted to build 3 pillars, because they thought they had seen Moses and Elijah with Jesus. There must have been something besides hell for those who did the will of God? :flower:
Link look in
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. :flower:
Lots of difficult things in the Bible, this is one of them. I do not think anyone goes to hell until judged! There seems to be a parking lot somewhere! Wish I knew the answer for sure. Jesus said that a day was coming when ' all that are in their graves will hear the voice of the Son of God.' Some will rise to blessedness others to condemnation.
Gosh, the Gospel is so important isn't it!
What think ye?
The Bible speaks of being with God or being with Christ for believers.
The OT is not as clear on this, but the NT is. And as Christians, we interpret the OT in light of the NT. Here are 2 statements about what happened to Enoch, one in the OT and one in the NT.
This goes against the idea, imo, of the teaching that there are 2 compartments in earth where the OT saints and OT lost waited until after Jesus ascended.
Paul said at least twice that to die was to be with Christ.
Revelation gives the picture of the saints with God after death.
Explain then what Paul means by the dead in Christ shall rise?
On the second day of Christ death, where did the souls come from?
I have always leaned toward the belief that when Christians die, they go automatically to heaven. This belief was based on what I was taught and the teaching was always based on Paul's writings.
Then I read for myself.
I don't know what verses you are talking about, Marcia, and I am not saying that these are the verses in question, but here are a couple of Paul's writings that I believe have been misappropriated to the immediacy of going to heaven after death.
Philippians 1:21 "For me to live as Christ and to die is gain."
Paul is not talking about heaven. He is talking about Christ being magnified in his life, whether he lives or dies. However, I have heard sermons where this was applied to the afterlife.
2 Corinthians 5:6-9 "Therefore, we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord. (For we walk by faith and not by sight.) We are confident, I say and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore, we labor that whether present or absent, we may be accepted by Him."
This is probably one of the most misquoted scriptures that I have ever heard. Everyone I know who claims this as a special verse always says is as if it were a proverb. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."
Paul is saying that Christians would much rather be in heaven with our Father, but until that time comes, whether here or in heaven, we must live to please Him.
".....to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." has an entirely different meaning than "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
The above passage does not say anything about resting or sleeping after death, but Christians can't claim that we don't rest or sleep in Christ after death, based on this passage because that isn't what this passage is addressing.
I don't have the definitive answer not the definitive scripture.
Paul also said in 1 Thessolonians 4:13-17 that we should stop worrying about what has happened to our dead loved ones. He said that if they (or we) were saved that when Christ returns that the "dead in Christ shall rise" and we shall "meet them in the air".
I just can't put in all together in my mind that Christians die - then go to heaven - then come back and get in the grave again - and then rise to meet Christ whom they've supposedly already met.
As I said, I do not have the answer and am curious about this and enjoy reading what others believe on this issue.
If there are Christians who believe that we go to heaven immediately after death, I just don't want them to base it on the wrong interpretation of a scripture that doesn't apply.
I want them to base it on appropriate scripture.
I'm very interested in other replies.
Excellent point Scarlet - right on the button!! The misquote you identify IS the strongest evidence in favor denying the Bible teaching on "sleep" - but you have to edit the text - (as you point out) to get there!!
That just speaks VOLUMES!!
In 1Thess 4 by contrast we are told about "The DEAD in Christ" and the fact that they are those "who sleep". This can not possibly be missed.
But the MOST impressive example comes from Matt 22. This is where Christ actually gets into the debate about soul sleep and the resurrection.
Back to 2Cor 5 -- there are 3 states mentioned.
#1. Clothed in this decaying tent - this earthly body.
#2. UNCLOTHED -- having no tent -- no body at all
#3. CLOTHED in the heavenly body - eternal (not swappable at the resurrection).
In 1Cor 15 Paul has ALREADY informed the saints at Corinth that you GET your eternal heavenly body at the resurrection at the 2nd coming!
Matt 22: 23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,[/b]
Here we have hostile interviewer that does not believe in the doctrine of the resurrection - this is one of the few times in scripture
where Christ debates a point directly without side-stepping the debate in order to foil the bad guys. First the bad boys setup the
question in a way that they suppose will "silence Jesus" with an unanswerable dilemma.
Like all good debaters - they start off assuming Christ's position - that there IS a resurrection of the dead. Their objective is to
show that using his own view - the problem is not solvable and so He is in error.
24 asking, ""Teacher, Moses said, " IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
25 ""Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
27 ""Last of all, the woman died.
28 ""In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her.''
Here the Sadducees present the “problem” for Christ’s view – showing that at the very first opportunity for the woman to be in any kind of relationship with her husbands (the resurrection of the dead) the problem is not solvable.
Because the Sadducees do not believe in Angel, or spirit or resurrection – they see no other “opportunity” for the problem of the woman and her 7 husbands to surface using Christ’s view of what happens after death. Apart from the supposed future resurrection that Christ teaches, they so no other time for the woman to relate in some way to her husbands after death.
Devastatingly to many Christians today that hold to the immortal soul idea - They see no problem IN death for Christ’s view – just a problem at the resurrection.
29 But Jesus answered and said to them, ""You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.
In this case Christ puts them off by getting to the heart of their real problem - not knowing the scriptures OR the Power of God. They are hardly in a frame of mind to be instructed by the humble carpenter’s son. His claim that they do not know the Power of God or the scriptures – is not convincing at all to them. They see this as simply an insult. Nothing “compelling” in the dialogue so far.
30 ""For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.
Step one - He solves their riddle.
He uses the “Given” that they have handed him – which is “Given that His teaching is correct” – and He shows that if one is using His set of truths – there is a solution to the puzzle – “No marriage”.
His solution is IN the details regarding resurrected saints - not dead ones.
In arguing that IN the resurrection “They are like the Angels” Christ is tossing another barb their way since they ALSO do not believe in Angels. (Insult added to injury as they say).
Step two Christ chooses to debate head-on making the SAME form of argument against their view that there is no resurrection..
He returns the favor - showing that using THEIR one view – using the Truth that they Still have - they should know that the resurrection is a sound Biblical doctrine.
So like all good debaters -He begins by telling them what he is going to prove (That the future resurrection is a fact of scripture) and then starts off with common ground.
31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?
Here He is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it. He is simply pointing out truth in THEIR OWN fully accepted set of beliefs. In this case it is a statement that God makes to Moses in the land of Midian long After Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.
This point is not debated or challenged by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t need to rely on accepting the authority of Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.
32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''
Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him”. Rather He knows they Already think of the dead in this way. They Already consider that God is NOT the God of the dead. In fact they even go beyond that – they argue ALSO that “there is no resurrection and no spirit” (Acts 23:8).
So here is the SECOND point of Christ’s case – a point that they fully accept and in fact that they would “insist” upon. He points out that God is NOT the God of dead people – and YET God stated to Moses – that He was the God of Abraham.
In their own argument used against Christ - The very HEART of their own argument in this chapter was that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life. God is indeed “Not the God of the dead” in their view – the dead have “no relationships” not with married spouses and not with God.
The obvious problem “To be solved” is that Abraham is dead when God spoke to Moses saying “I AM the God of Abraham” and as already “agreed” God “is NOT the God of the dead”!!.
Conclusion – Iron Clad Case e!![/b]
At this point Christ’s argument for the iron clad case of the Resurrection ENDS!!! “How unexpected”! say many Christians today. “How“ incomplete”! they argue.
You see – many Christians today do not see what the Sadducees AND the Pharisees saw in this devastating debate with the Sadducees that PROVED beyond all doubt that the resurrection is the ONLY possible solution to the problem Christ has identified. For modern Christians there is “another solution” and this is “Abraham has an immortal soul that IS worshipping God while dead” – in their view God IS the God of Abraham – HE IS the God of those who have died –For though the body is dead – Abraham THE PERSON is fully alive in heaven and God IS the God of Abraham – at the time God makes this statement to Moses. NO resurrection NEEDED – in the view of many of today’s Christians the problem is entirely ”solvable” without the resurrection.
Enoch and Elijah went directly to heaven in the OT - translated without seeing death.
Moses went to heaven as we learn in Matt 17 and as we see in Jude where the book of "The Assumption of Moses" is quoted regarding the dispute between Michael and Satan over the issue of resurrecting Moses' bodily and then his assumption into heaven.
As for the OT saints - like those in Heb 11 - they did exactly as we see in 1Thess 4 where NT saints "fall asleep" and become "the DEAD in Christ" - where their hope of being joined to us and to Christ is only through the resurrection of the righteous at the rapture of the church.
Your point was that God is the God of the living, not the dead.
He is the God of Abraham so Abraham must be living.
Either he transformed from mortal to immortal
He was resurrected.
Did i follow that much? Did you conclude with which you think is correct? How does this account for those who are asleep?
Also, you say "NO resurrection NEEDED" How do you relate your statement to this verse?
John 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
The "solution" Christ offers is NOT GHOSTS - it is "The Resurrection"!
The PROBLEM is that God was claiming to be the God of Abraham WHILE Abraham was dead and BOTH groups AGREED that God can not possibly be the God of a person who is now dead as was Abraham at the time God spoke to Moses. Christ had placed them in a tight spot where the ONLY SOLUTION was "well then there MUST be a future resurrection".
YOUR solution is ANOTHER one entirely which is "Well then there must be GHOSTS in heaven that are alive and not dead".
But the text is very clear that the PROOF was for the RESURRECTION not ghosts.
My point about "No resurrection needed" is that BY ARGUING that the solution is "ghosts in heaven" you remove the need for the resurrection as the means for MAKING the statement true when God speaks to Moses.
But EVEN THEN you have a problem because in that case the statement should be "GOD IS the God of the dead because they are in fact Ghosts and there is no need of a resurrection to solve the problem of God saying -- I AM the God of Abraham after Abraham has in fact died".
It is that simple.
In the Bible when the "Dead in Christ" are raised they "COME TO LIFE" as we see in Rev 20:1-4. In Matt 22 they are debating the "resurrection".
Christ's statement in John 11 is "Lazarus sleeps - I go that I may WAKE HIM" then He says "LAZARUS" (the person) "IS dead".
When Christ meets Martha He says that Lazarus "WOULD rise Again" and Martha says "YES I know He will AT THE LAST DAY". ]
Christ stated in John 11 that Lazarus the PERSON was "asleep" in death and that in a literal sense the Lazarus the PERSON was dead "LAZARUS IS dead".
Futhermore Christ said "YET SHALL he live" - Christ did not argue that in soul-sleep Lazarus was NOW alive - "I GO that I may WAKE Him".
The only way the sisters were going to be reunited with their brother was through resurrection. This is also seen in 1thess 4 where the saints who have lost a loved one are pointed to that FUTURE time when at the rapture of the church and the resurrection of the dead they WILL be reunited.
Paul does not say "when you die you will then be united with them in heaven". Resurrection is the only mechanism given in the Bible for being in fellowship with a lost loved one.
You said Lazuras was person dead and soul-sleep.
Christ woke the soul and resurrected the body.
This is also what you describe as the resurrection described in 1 THES 4.
and all of this is to equal no ghost in heaven.
God is a spirit. he is not made of flesh and blood, he is spirit. The eternal son and 2nd part of the God head is spirit, not flesh. The flesh died on the cross of Calvery for our sins.
Now what or who was the resurrected Christ? We know he walked through a door without opening it. This doesn't sound like flesh as we know it. We know he ascended into heaven. Again, not the flesh I know as it can't fly.
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
I don't know what a true heavenly body is, I do know God is spirit and it won't be flesh as we know it that will enter the kingdom. I will have to be similar to the angels that visited Lot in Sodom. The flesh is the part of man that is sinful and unrighteous unto God our Father.
I will have to think more on this....
I have never heard a baptist espouse this.
Espouse which part, that God is spirit? Or the part about the heavenly bodies?
Not that I didn't know.
Luke 24:36-40 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
This is what I said I don't know what he was, he walked through doors yet he says here that he is flesh and bones. He also still had the body with holes in his hands, feet and sides. Did this spirit have blood or was it shed on calvary. Notice Jesus doesn't mention blood, just flesh and bones. It is also said the life of the flesh is in the blood. This whole thing has me very boggled.