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Featured Did Adam and Eve have free will before the fall?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bronconagurski, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    dying you will surely die
    YLT: dying thou dost die

    Me: You will be dead awaiting the spirit of the breath of life, that presently maintains life in you, to depart from you and return to me. You will then be dead, without hope of any kind of life.

    However God knows that at the moment he told Adam this he who cannot lie, had before he even created the man Adam had made a promise of the hope of eternal life. This promise was made before time began. Who was it made for if he had told Adam he was going to die without hope?

    How about this promise having been made for the Lamb who before the foundation of the world or the creation of Adam, it was determined would die.
    A Lamb without spot or blemish, a sinless Son of Man maybe he would come and die the death assigned to his father Adam and become the substance of things hoped for, being he was also the Son of God. Maybe his death would be the faith that brings the hope of eternal life.

    Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

    Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ.
     
    #21 percho, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2012
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    When Adam seen with his eyes that Eve was not dead he then started to doubt God, We can't trust what we see, we can only trust in His word over what we see.

    Instead of telling her to repent for her sin because of death and believing the word of God over what he seen he ate.

    We don't see the promises in Christ yet we believe in God and His word over what we see, that is faith.

    Romans 10:17

    New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)

    17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

    Romans 10:17

    New International Version (NIV)

    17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

    1 Corinthians 13:2
    If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

    James 2:26
    As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    Romans 4
    Abraham Justified by Faith

    4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[Gen. 15:6; also in verse 22]

    4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

    Matthew 22
    The Greatest Commandment

    34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

    37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[Deut. 6:5] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[Lev. 19:18] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

    Romans 13:8
    [ Love Fulfills the Law ] Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,”[Exodus 20:13-15,17; Deut. 5:17-19,21] and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[Lev. 19:18] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Matthew 5 :
    Love for Enemies

    43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[Lev. 19:18] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    i bold as yourself because we are to love yourself in Christ to.
     
    #22 psalms109:31, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 11, 2012
  3. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    The distinction is that you focus on the outward appearance, God focuses on the heart.
     
  4. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    It's certain the devil did not make you do a thing. Following a leader or path is a choice. Adam knew better but he sinned anyway. We are enticed tempted and lured but ultimately the way we go is our choice. Satan isn't holding a gun to your head.
    MB
     
  5. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    Is sinning only a choice after the fall? How much does our sin nature play into sin? To me, the doctrine of the depravity of man is one of the doctrines I strongly believe in Calvanism. But before the fall, I am struggling to define what kind of nature Adam and Eve had. Some call it innocence, others perfection, but they obviously were not perfect. Did they have the Holy Spirit indwelling them? Also, what indication to we have that Adam and Eve were saved after the fall? Did the Holy Spirit indwell them after the fall if they were saved?

    I know Adam sinned willfully, but I wonder why he didn't speak up if he was present at Eve's temptation. Scripture records no conversation from Adam toward Eve or the Serpent. It makes me wonder if he was really there the whole time. If so, he dropped the ball bigtime.
     
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    YLT 1Peter1:3 Blessed the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,

    did beget us again -How- By pouring on us the Holy Spirit
    to a living hope -How- Through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

    This living hope is the hope of eternal life which God who cannot lie promised
    before time begin. We now because Jesus Christ has received that promise have hope thereof also.

    Titus 3:7 YLT that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during. (eternal life)

    Notice we are heirs, not yet inheritors, what beget us as heirs, not yet inheritors of the hope of eternal live? Verse 6 which refers back to the last two words of verse 5: which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, (what?) V5 the Holy Spirit. Notice the Holy Spirit was poured on us, through, meaning first he received then through him it is given to us. That is the very words of Acts 2:33 First Jesus received from then it was poured on. Acts 2:33 YLT at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;

    How was this done? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ Titus 3:5 through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,

    To whom? Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Was this because of FAITH?

    Gal 4:4 and when the fulness of time did come, God sent forth His Son, (be) come of a woman, (be) come under law,
    Gal 3:23,24,25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we (including Jesus become under the law) were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith (which had not yet come, had not yet been revealed) we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

    It was through the faith that had come, Jesus the sinless one dying, that God the Father by grace raised him from the dead renewing him with the Holy Spirit by which we are begotten again unto the hope of eternal life.
     
  7. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    I do not believe in total Depravity. It's not found any where in scripture. That does not mean we are not sinful creatures but it is a stretch to call it total. Adam and Eve were not saved by the blood of Christ when they died.

    Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    However it would be hard to say that they were lost. No man or woman had Salvation until the shedding of the blood of Christ. The OT believers were placed in Abraham's bosom, until Christ came and set them free.

    Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

    MB
     
  8. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Did Adam and Eve have free will before the fall?

    No. Before then, they didn't know they were going to die. So they didn't bother getting a lawyer, whether he would file a will for free or not.
     
  9. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    Funny as a crutch, Ritchie. :)
     
  10. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    So if there isn't such a thing as total depravity, why does the scripture plainly tell us that there is none righteous? Why does it say that no one seeks after God? Is not this total depravity? Or do you think that just because no one seeks after God, it does not mean that they could not seek after God should they choose to do so? Depraved means morally bad or corrupt, so this describes mankind perfectly in his natural state if you ask me. If man isn't depraved, then what is he?
     
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    He is depraved and he won't seek God, but that doesn't mean man can't respond to a God actively seeking him. Romans 3:10, Rom. 8:21, and many other text Calvinists falsely misapply, is referring to man's inability to attain righteousness by Law through works. Calvinists think these somehow prove that men are unable to attain righteousness by Grace through Faith.

    The mistake they make is equating faith with a meritorious works of the law....suggesting that we think we are earning God's grace by our faith. But we don't believe faith earns or merits our salvation. Only grace does that. God in his grace chooses to impute the righteousness of Christ to our accounts on the basis of our faith. But even the most faithful sinner in the world still deserves an eternal hell. Faith doesn't deserve salvation! That is ALL God's grace!!! Understand?
     
  12. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    The key is that God initiates salvation, not man, thus man has to be depraved. Dead in trespasses and sins. Otherwise, why would the Spirit have to quicken us? I am a Calvanist, but I do believe that once enlightened by the Holy Spirit, man has a choice to accept the free gift of salvation, or to reject it and stay lost. I agree that faith doesn't merit salvation, because God is the one that brings us to that conviction. I still remember the struggle that went on in me during those moments before I got saved. The question is, why do some believe during that moment, and some do not? I have seen others struggle with conviction, only to reject God.
     
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You might as well have said, "I'm a Calvinist, but I'm not a Calvinist."

    Is that the only reason? Would you think it was meritorious if we came to faith as a free response to the gospel appeal? If so, why?
    Why do some believers become Calvinistic and some don't? Why do some like some foods but not others? Why are some people's favorite color blue and other red? It's called free will....or better put, self-determination. God created us to be autonomous creatures who are held to account for our decisions.

    And that is their free decision, but its not because God didn't love them or provide what they needed to be redeemed. NO ONE perishes for lack of atonement!
     
  14. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    I am a Calvanist in my definition, despite what you think. I don't have to accept the Calvanist paradigm any more than I do your conclusion. I mean no offense with that statement, nor malice toward you. I have enjoyed this thread. I know that I never would have gotten saved if God did not reveal Himself to me and convict me, and I know that because He saved me, He will make sure that I persevere. Those two things make me a Calvanist in my book.
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    With all due respect, I've spent much of my life studying theology, especially soteriology, and the fact that you don't spell the word correctly and think you can maintain the system while denying one of the most foundational components (effectual/irresistible call) reveals to me all I need to know. You are anything but a Calvinist.

    Nor I, you...

    Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike agree with this point of view.

    Then your book is inaccurate. I agree with you on this point as well, as would most Baptist non-Calvinists.

    Tell me, do you think Jesus only died for the elect, or do you believe he satisfied the justice for all mankind giving everyone opportunity to believe and be saved?
     
  16. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    I call my oldest son my youngest son's name sometimes and vice versa but that doesn't mean I don't know who I am talking to. I never claimed to be a great speller, nor do I use spellcheck, but you say I am not a Calvinist because I mispelled it? Ok, from now on I should look for threads with mispelled words and post how untrue that thread is because of the mispelled words. Theology is man's opinion of God. Just because you have yours doesn't make it better than mine, no offense. Augustine, the first Calvanist imo had what we would call heretical views now. Things change, and I have lived long enough to see Calvinism take many different forms. I know a fellow that I used to party with before we both got saved get caught up in hyper-Calvinism and leave his wife because he said she wasn't one of the elect. Was he a Calvinist or not?
     
  17. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    Skandy, I answered this separately.

    "Tell me, do you think Jesus only died for the elect, or do you believe he satisfied the justice for all mankind giving everyone opportunity to believe and be saved?"

    I don't know if every man has heard the gospel before dying, do you? So I don't think that question can be answered whether every man had the opportunity to believe in Christ. Let me put it this way: Jesus' death was sufficient to save anyone who believes, even if it includes every man. But we know all aren't saved, so practically, He only died for the elect.
     
  18. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Do you believe that God, before the foundation of the world, preselected a particular number of people to save, and that he will irresistibly bring about their salvation leaving the rest to certain destruction?
     
  19. Bronconagurski

    Bronconagurski New Member

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    I believe God is omniscient (better check my spelling), so He knows everyone that will be saved. So, yes, according to God's foreknowledge, he preselected them and ensured they got saved. I know that view is not popular, but God is either omniscient, or He is not, and He is omnipotent, or He is not. And no, He didn't leave the rest to certain destruction, they will be destroyed because of their sin of unbelief.
     
  20. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You sound like the typical 2-3 point moderate Baptist, and I challenge you to find any notable, or knowledgable scholarly Calvinist who would categorize you as one of their own. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm just telling you that I'm almost more Calvinistic than you are.

    What you have just describe is known as the foresight faith view of some classical Arminians. I'm trying to find just one point where you would qualify as Calvinistic. It appears that only your affirmation of the P (perseverance) is consistent with Calvinism, which most of us as Baptist also affirm...but we certainly aren't Calvinists just because we affirm that point.
     
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