Did anything die before sin?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by zrs6v4, Dec 10, 2009.

  1. zrs6v4

    zrs6v4
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    I was just thinking and was wondering if death physically for man was only a post sin thing. In other words, were we created to die in the flesh?

    did man have to eat and drink?

    did plants die before sin?

    my thoughts are purely philosophy, and hold no impact other than interesting conversation by the way...

    my thoughts were that if man reproduced and sin didnt happen, then the earth would be pretty loaded.. I understand Gods plan is perfect and sovereign and this isnt possible..

    is death bad? it cant be a sin b/c Jesus died.
     
    #1 zrs6v4, Dec 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2009
  2. Amy.G

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    Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

    Death entered the world by Adam's sin. So no, there was no death before Adam sinned.

    Death is not sin, but sin caused death.
     
  3. preachinjesus

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    There might have been death for animals, plants, and such but not for Adam and Eve. It is likely that they had protection from death.

    The Garden of Eden is such an interesting part of the Bible. It seems animals might have had free entry and exit but not for Adam and Eve. I wonder why this was.

    In many ways it reinforces my belief that the Garden stage was longer than a few days from Creation to Fall. :)
     
  4. Darrenss1

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    I think some on the old earth position hold that there was death before the fall. It may also be the case that the tree of life was the issue regarding the prolonging of death for Adam and Eve, therefore "physical" death came by sin because it prevented their ability to partake of the tree of life; notwithstanding spiritual death came as the result of sin as well but its important I think to take into account the 2 types of death and the role of the tree of life..

    Darren
     
  5. Tater77

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    Why humans die is told in detail. But animals are only assumed to be a part of the cycle of life and death set in motion by Adam. The Bible doesn't say if the cycle of life for animals was there from creation or not. The Word just deals with Adam and Eve then humans.

    Not trying to be rude, just making a statement. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  6. David Michael Harris

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    Paul uses the word decay in places. Trees etc had seeds, leaves would fall, seasons come and go. Good one this.

    A difficult area is with regard to humans, if Adam was immortal, why the tree of life?

    In the grand picture we see that God is glorifying Himself.

    Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of heaven.

    Paul also talks about us putting on immortality.

    Food for thought eh!

    Death came in because of sin! Physical or spiritual?

    If Jesus never went to the cross would He have grown old and died? And yet not be dead to God because He never sinned.

    All good study stuff this.
     
  7. Winman

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    Man did have to eat and drink.

    Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

    This is a difficult subject, arguments can be made that man would have lived forever, or that man would have grown old and died. In seems to me that man's physical body had the ability to stay alive provided we eat of the tree of life.

    Just my opinion, but I believe the curse of death applied to the spiritual, not physical.

    Gen 1:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


    Adam did not die physically the very day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but he did spiritually. He was separated from God by his sin. Death in the scriptures means to be separated from God, not that we cease to exist. Jesus spoke of Abraham and other saints who were physically dead as living.

    Matt 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    These men were all physically dead, but Jesus said they were living. So I believe the death spoken of in the curse applied to the spiritual, not physical. No, death means to be separated from God.

    Gen 1:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
    8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


    People talk about the fall, but I do not see a fall in scripture. It is obvious man had the ability to sin the day he was created, else Adam and Eve could not have eaten the forbidden fruit. The scriptures say God cannot be tempted with evil, but Adam and Eve could and were. So man was not created in absolute moral perfection like God.

    Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

    When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, the scriptures do not say it made them evil, only that it opened their eyes and made them conscious of sin. They already had the ability to sin. And there is not one word in God's curse upon man concerning his moral nature.

    Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
    18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
    19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


    Did God curse man to physically die in this curse? I am not so sure. God says "cursed be the ground for thy sake". Man's curse was that his labor be multiplied and more difficult. Perhaps this is where the laws of thermodynamics were placed on the physical universe. But I am not so sure that this is cursing man physically to die, because man could have still lived physically forever if he ate from the tree of life.

    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

    And even when we who are saved are resurrected, it seems we will still need the tree of life.

    Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

    Revelations 22:2 is very interesting. It seems to say the fruit is for eating, but the leaves are for healing. Will our bodies in heaven require the tree of life for both nourishment and to guard against disease? It seems so. Will it be possible for a person to be injured in heaven? Perhaps.

    So, it seems that to physically stay alive that men need the tree of life. Adam and Eve would not have died physically if they had eaten of the tree of life even after they sinned. And even in heaven it seems we require this tree.
     
    #7 Winman, Dec 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2009
  8. zrs6v4

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    Yea I am glad there are some interests because I was afraid I would be told Im an idiot for thinking this, haha.. I think the most interesting argument is that Jesus was not born in the line of Adam and had no sin and yet he grew old and died physically. This is why I wondered if death was always a "good" part of Gods creation and then Spiritual life picked up from there. I do respect the fact that God probably didnt plan around possibilities or was He surprised at anything therefore the way it happened was the way and only way it was created. Scripture does not really say I dont think, but I just raise this to suggest different outlooks on physical death.. I guess..
     
  9. Darrenss1

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    Death isn't always looked at as a negative, especially when it comes to animals, insects, fish, ecosysystems..etc death is a way to limit the species, especially prevent overpopulation, as well as a source of food. Who knows how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden its more than possible that various ecosystems and habitats were functioning and full of life, without the death of certain species I don't see how some ecosystems could survive much less thrive; even before the fall. Its impossible to think that the world was a product of natural processes when it is so brilliantly designed by a Creator that has more genius than our little minds could even imagine.

    Darren
     
  10. webdog

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    Death is the ending or ceasing of life, and since plants were consumed prior to the fall, the plants' live had to end (unless they continued to grow in their stomachs :))

    The fall is implicitly implied in Romans 5:12
     
  11. ReformedBaptist

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    Plants are not biblically alive. They do not possess the breath of life. To my knowledge the Bible never talks about death as it relates to plants or vegetation. It speaks of wither, et.
     
  12. OldRegular

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    I believe you are correct Amy.G insofar as human and animal life was concerned. I believe that the first death occurred when God killed an animal to make a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve and, therefore, a provisional atonement for their sin.

    However, if you consider that plants are life then it could be argued that death did occur since Adam and Eve were allowed to eat from the trees in the Garden. [Genesis 2:16] Of course they may have only eaten the fruit in which case who knows?

    This question of life of life and death and the question of plant "life" is discussed in a brief article in the December issue of Acts and Facts, published by the Institute for Creation Research. You may find it interesting.

    http://www.icr.org/article/perspectives-life/
     
  13. webdog

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    Only man is said to have the breath of life, which implies a uniqueness. Plants were most certainly alive, or they wouldn't grow and produce fruit. It's not the same life as man had, but it's life nonetheless. Death is the ending of life...withering is a result of death.

    The threat of dying would have meant nothing to Adam and Eve if they didn't already know what death was. It would have been a totally foreign phrase to them, and pointless. It would be like someone telling me if I open this special box, igmurtihan will occur. :) Meaningless without knowing what it is.
     
  14. Amy.G

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    I think this passage explains that all of creation is under the curse of death and corruption and will someday be redeemed, just as we will be.

    Romans 8 (NASB)
    19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

    20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope

    21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

    22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
     
  15. zrs6v4

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    you could also ask the question, "Was it painful to die or was dieing meant to be a glorious thing rather than post-sin being a painful, anxious, thing... Dieing and pain/suffering are seperate categories. It may have been as relieving as falling asleep. Which is interesting because one could get tired in the garden and sleep without being in sin. With sin being tired is sometimes painful and causes increase of sin. I dont know Im just talking....:)
     
  16. David Michael Harris

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    Keep thinking :)

    Thanks for your thoughts.
     
  17. Amy.G

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    Your thoughts are interesting and you should keep asking questions, but I don't see anything in the Bible to back them up. :) (yet)
     
  18. asterisktom

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    Plants are never spoken of as having life in the biblical sense (nephesh).
     
  19. saturneptune

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    To zrs,
    I have to admire someone who can think of a question that never crossed my mind. You must have a gift to provoke thought. After reading the posts, its still an open question with me. Keep up the good work.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    If one believes animals did not die before the fall then one must believe the instant Adam sinned sharks went from being vegetarians to carnivours. Their complete physiology changed in an instant. Not only sharks but birds of prey and all other meat eating mammals.


    http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/death.html#ktoivu1lVi88

    The idea that no creatures, including plants, died prior to the Fall is the extreme position of a minority of young earth creationists. They claim that only parts of plants are eaten, and, therefore, no plants actually died. Although a number of grazing animals eat only the tops of grass or leaves, leaving the plant alive, there are a number of exceptions. Even grass grazers pull up whole plants (including the roots) on occasion, which results in the death of entire plants. Some animals eat only roots, such as gophers. Once the roots are eaten, the plant quickly dies. Many sea animals eat diatoms and microscopic plants - ingesting and killing entire organisms. So, unless God changed the way these herbivores eat, plants surely died during the fifth and sixth days of creation.

    Some young earth creationists claim that the Bible indicates that plants do not die. Therefore, eating them does not constitute death. However, the Bible specifically compares the deaths of humans to those of plants, making this idea ridiculous. Both the Old Testament3 and New Testament4 compare the deaths of humans to the deaths of grass, flowers, and herbs. Therefore, the idea that the Bible claims plants don't die is not at all supported.
     

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