Did Augustine Corrupt The Church With Gnostic Doctrine?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Benjamin, Jul 17, 2013.

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  1. Benjamin

    Benjamin
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    …through his origins which brought a doctrine against the “free will” of God’s creatures?

    Great educational video every Christian should see!!!:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhLF-llpFX0

    Did Paul agree with Clement on free will?

    Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

    What did Clement say? (about 6 minutes in).

    All these following guys from the early church wrong about free will?

    How about Ignatius? à Disciple of John?

    Irenaeus à Polycarp à John? Close connection there, eh???

    Justin Martyr?

    Tertullian?

    Methodius? Note to self: Got to get some of these quotes (Irenaeus too) down in text! (He called the denial of free will as coming from pagans, BTW???)

    Eusebius? His account of history correct? (Seems many, like myself, see free will as good and consistent with God’s nature in His design of the world!) (Anyone hear what he said about those who hang all things on fate (determinism)??? :eek:Whoa!!!)

    Origen? Harsh words there about doctrines which deny human nature to have free will, hmm?

    Should we NOT look beyond Augustine to what the early church father’s believed???

    For 300 hundred years + after Christ the church maintained free will according to Episcopius. Is this true?

    How about the “accusation” from Calvinist that a belief in free will goes back to Pelagians, yet all the church fathers held the free will view? Hmm? Were they all Pelagians??? Anyone that believes in free will is a Pelagian? How many times I heard that accusation...:sleep:

    Who were the Gnostics, what did they believe??? Gnostic roots applicable?

    ? Does this apply to situation: Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Augustine à Manichaean à Gnostic roots?

    When and how did men lose free will? Does the Bible show this? What this doctrine merely come from Augustine’s gnostic doctrinal roots leading to his doctrine of original sin? “The faculty of free will is never taken away…” ~ Origen Did sin take away any of the natural powers given him? If so, when? When Augustine came along???

    Does God not speak to men as free moral agents after the fall of men? (Deut 11:26-28, Joshua 24:15, Jer 21:8, Eze 18:30-31, Acts 17:30)

    Where did Augustine learn from???

    What were Augustine’s methods which he used to bring his doctrine into the church???

    Propagation? "Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." ?

    Did this leaven start coming in about 500 years after the church?

    Augustine (many false doctrines) àß Calvin/Luther (foundation of some false doctrines on human nature & Free will) àß Protestant Realm = What are the ROOTS???

    When and why did Augustine join the Manichaean sect???:eek: Should this (the revival of Augustinianism) NOT BE A WARNINGS to us?!



    Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.



    Yes!!! Forever - Amen!
    :saint:
     
    #1 Benjamin, Jul 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 17, 2013
  2. preachinjesus

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    Did Augustine Corrupt The Church With Gnostic Doctrine?

    No
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Another snow job.
     
  4. DrJamesAch

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  5. Robert Snow

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    Thank you, thank you very much! :laugh:
     
  6. Robert Snow

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    I can see why a Calvinists would not want to see this video. It exposes Calvinism as the gnostic doctrine that it is. Calvinists are saved in spite of Calvinism, not because of it.
     
  7. preachinjesus

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    And that's a bunch of junk. The video is bad theology and bad history. I'm not a Calvinist, nor Reformed, and I'll say that.
     
  8. DrJamesAch

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    And why is it bad history. PROVE IT, don't just summarily write it off without explanation.
     
  9. Benjamin

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    My main focus was the truth about "what" the church believed (especially the first 300+ years) about "free will" and next "how" "when" and "why" this view changed. I asked quite a few questions in the Op.

    I expect your objection is that maybe you don't like to badmouth Augustine? ...but its not looking good for him as far "*where*" his doctrines came from, "why" he came to them, and "how" or "when" they came into the church is important too...
     
    #9 Benjamin, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
  10. Revmitchell

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    The accusation of Gnosticism is nothing but infantile demonization games by those who for whatever reason despise Calvinism. I do not agree with some of it but this accusation is over the top and childish.
     
  11. convicted1

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    It a "shot over the bow", like both sides of this debate like to do. It's useless bantering.....sliding off like water off a duck's back........
     
  12. Benjamin

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    Note I was asking questions about what was said throughout on specific points. Let's save the name calling (Ad Hominem) address the issues (view)...
     
    #12 Benjamin, Jul 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 18, 2013
  13. Benjamin

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    Thanks for the meaningless rhetorical contribution and fine analysis of what was said. ;) You're posts seem to be changing BTW.:confused:
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    If you think I was talking to you then that is on you. As far as addressing the "issues" there is none withy regards to saying Calvinism is Gnostic. It is a non starter and not worth saying more than I have. Some people need to grow up.
     
  15. Benjamin

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    Thought that was what I said. Do you have anything to contribute to this thread about what was said in the video other than offering rhetoric and whining about the perspective view that is given on Augustine and making this a personal issue (Ad Hominem) "debate"?
     
  16. convicted1

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    What I meant Brother Ben is that both sides shoot barbs at each other all the time on here. There's no other topics in the bible to talk about it seems. That's why when someone speaks against the Cal doctrine, I let it slide like water off a duck's back, because the Cals shoot these barbs too(see Protestant). And yes, I am thisclose to becoming a full-fledged five-pointer. But, I meant no malice in my previous post, and sorry if it came across that way.
     
  17. Benjamin

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    Okay. So do you have any opinion about what was about said, especially about free will, and what the church believed concerning it, especially the first 300+ years? What about the guys (fathers) who said this, credible sources or not?
     
  18. The Archangel

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    The premise of the thread and, especially, the video is hopelessly and historically flawed.

    Here, for a counterpoint, are two links which have substantial quotes from those Morrell claims to speak for:

    http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/01/refutation-of-jesse-morrells.html

    http://www.reformedapologeticsministries.com/2013/02/refutation-of-jesse-morrells.html

    It is always important to investigate one's claims about anything. This is why, by the way, serious people cite their sources--so that conclusions and arguments can be properly evaluated.

    Most Calvinistic Baptists I know of are merely pointed to the text of Scripture by Calvin. This is one reason we reject his arguments on paedobaptism among other things.

    The anti-Calvinists curse us Calvinists for following Calvin the man uncritically. Unfortunately, this thread is a perfect example of the anti-Calvinists swallowing this spilth lock, stock, and barrel without engaging even one brain cell to evaluate Morrell's claims. The whole thing is just so callow. It really is astounding.

    The Archangel
     
  19. convicted1

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    Anything that far back in regards to history, whether secular or religion, needs to be taken with a grain of salt. People can always dig up info that "supports" their claim, or so they say. A Brother, I can't remember his username, but he used Louisana as him location, sent me a PM a couple years ago about how the Jesuits were behind making other versions of the bible and even aided in Lincoln's assasination. Then Brother DJA brings up the Jesuits again. I just push these to the side and let the bible be my guide, through the workings of the Spirit. No one is alive now when the likes of Polycarp and Augustine were, so who knows how accurate that history is?
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    Apparently you need to look up that word. And some things are not really debate material. Calling Calvinism Gnostic is itself an ad hominem
     
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