Did Christ die for everyone or just for the elect?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Ron Arndt, Nov 17, 2005.

  1. Ron Arndt

    Ron Arndt
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    Most evangelical churches today say that Jesus loves you over the tv airwaves to anyone watching. Also that he died just for you. But is this really scriptural? I have always believed the bible teaches that the Father elected a certain mass of people called the elect and Christ came to bear their sins on the cross.I Pet 2:24

    All who are the elect of the Father will be drawn by the Holy Spirit through the call of the gospel to Christ. This to me cannot be true for those who are non believers, especially atheists and millions of others who are Muslims in the world. And most of these non believers live and die in this state.

    What do you say? And why isn't this taught more in fundamental evangelical churches today?
     
  2. Salamander

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    Please. Answer how "all" doesn't mean ALL?

    One must first be a sinner, then after salvation is become "elect and precious".

    Your doctrinal view allows too many questionable verses to have any precedence because so many other verses tell us ALL otherwise.
     
  3. Vlad_IL

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    I believe Jesus Christ died for ALL sinners. The Bible says that ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and ALL means ALL.

    2 Pet. 2:1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

    Note, the Lord died for the false prophets, who are obviously non-Christians.

    1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
     
  4. Grasshopper

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    Then Jesus paid for the sins of All. If Jesus paid for the sins of ALL then what will the lost be punished for? Didn't Jesus pay the price for ALL? Are they punsished for sins that Jesus already paid for? Or did Jesus die for ALL and only pay the sin penalty for the elect?

    Not as simple as some would have you believe.
     
  5. James_Newman

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    Jesus died for the sins of the world, and all who believe are saved. The elect are those who will reign with Him in His kingdom. Want to be one of those? Then you'd better make your calling and election sure.
     
  6. Grasshopper

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    By adding works?
     
  7. webdog

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    Then Jesus paid for the sins of All. If Jesus paid for the sins of ALL then what will the lost be punished for? Didn't Jesus pay the price for ALL? Are they punsished for sins that Jesus already paid for? Or did Jesus die for ALL and only pay the sin penalty for the elect?

    Not as simple as some would have you believe.
    </font>[/QUOTE]If I bought you and your entire family dinner...fully paid for...and gave it to you, are you obligated to eat it? Do you have a choice whether to eat it or not? Regardless of your choice, the meal was paid.
     
  8. billreber

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    Two different but related steps are included here.

    1. Jesus died to provide salvation for ALL people.

    2. God set up the way we people obtain that salvation -- Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved (Acts 16:31).

    Thus, Jesus died for all, but not all will "benefit" from His death, because they refuse to believe in Him.


    (I know, this is over-simplified. Hope it helps, though!)

    Bill
     
  9. Grasshopper

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    Exactly, the meal was paid for regardless of acceptance. Am I expected to pay for the meal again on my way out the door?
     
  10. pinoybaptist

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    I would like you to also please confirm that the following verses mean the 'whole world', or 'all the world', meaning to include from the North Pole to the South Pole, from the West to the East, and not just the world as they knew it then.

    Luke 2:1 -

    And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

    Acts 11:28 -

    And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar

    Romans 1:8 -

    First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    (so, the chinese, and the africans, and the asians, and the japanese, and the pygmies, knew about the Roman Christians and their faith ?).

    1 Corinthians 10:11 -

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Colossians 1:5-6

    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

    If all men means genetically all men to you, then the world should mean the world, right ?
     
  11. webdog

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    Exactly, the meal was paid for regardless of acceptance. Am I expected to pay for the meal again on my way out the door? </font>[/QUOTE]You wouldn't be "paying" for the meal again, you would not partake of what it is for: to prevent you from starving. If you accept the meal and eat it, you will not starve. If you reject it continually you will eventually starve. No double predestination happening.
     
  12. webdog

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    I would like you to also please confirm that the following verses mean the 'whole world', or 'all the world', meaning to include from the North Pole to the South Pole, from the West to the East, and not just the world as they knew it then.

    Luke 2:1 -

    And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

    Acts 11:28 -

    And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar

    Romans 1:8 -

    First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
    (so, the chinese, and the africans, and the asians, and the japanese, and the pygmies, knew about the Roman Christians and their faith ?).

    1 Corinthians 10:11 -

    Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

    Colossians 1:5-6

    For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
    Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

    If all men means genetically all men to you, then the world should mean the world, right ?
    </font>[/QUOTE]I fail to see your point in the verses posted. "All the world" at that time meant all the world. Just because the entire planet was not populated does not mean that they did not mean all the world.
     
  13. James_Newman

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    By adding works? </font>[/QUOTE]indeed
     
  14. webdog

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    By adding works? </font>[/QUOTE]indeed </font>[/QUOTE]Wrong. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone, works have no part in justification. Sanctification is separate from justification.
     
  15. James_Newman

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    you didn't read my original post
     
  16. Grasshopper

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    Yet you have the lost “paying” for the sin again even though it was already paid.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. webdog

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    I did. I still don't see how by adding works we can make our election and calling sure. Works play no role in justification.
     
  18. webdog

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    How do your figure? If it was paid for one time...and one time only, not eating the meal and starving is not "paying" the price of the meal.
     
  19. James_Newman

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    James 2:21-24
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

    But James is writing to those that are already justified by faith.
     
  20. Grasshopper

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    Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that our father Abraham has found, according to flesh?
    Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has a boast; but not before God.
    Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
    Rom 4:4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
    Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


    Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God,
    Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
     

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