did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by massdak, Jan 22, 2004.

  1. massdak

    massdak
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    first would everyone agree that unbelief is a sin.
    second is unbelief a sin that is not covered until it is repented of, then Christ takes away all the other sins after repentance of unbelief then faith.
    this question could solve some of the arminian and calvinist debate. if a person could show how this question means that all sin is forgiven even unbelief and the result of belief as evidence that all sin is forgiven through Christ. the arminian view would seem to say unbelief is not forgiven until it is repented of where other sins are forgiven without the direct repentance from.
     
  2. Johnv

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    If the Bible says Christ dies for all sins, then Christ dies for all sins. Period.

    Asking of Christ died for the sin of unbelief is like asking if God can make a rock so big that he can't move it.
     
  3. massdak

    massdak
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    but all who do not believe die in their sins, unless you believe in universal salvation how do you explain your answer?
     
  4. Johnv

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    I explain it the way the Bible says: Do not judge anyone's salvation.

    That's good enough for me.
     
  5. massdak

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    What???????????????????????????????

    i should demand that you explain that in context to my post.
     
  6. Bro. Curtis

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    Christ died for the sins of the world. Some of us will not accept that gift, but it is still a gift.

    If my mom gives me a sweater, and I never wear it, I never benefit from her gift. But she still gave me the sweater.
     
  7. Johnv

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    The context is this: Worry about yourself accepting the gift of salvation, and let God worry about everyone else.
     
  8. Me2

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    this is where you will find the the statements referring to calling someone a "fool". It denotes pronouncing final condemnation in judgement.

    something no christian has the right to Do.

    We are not God. everyone has the right to the mercies of God. Even to the last second of their existence.

    If one was to dwell on this issue. they would discover that all men are equal. all men are loved of God. all men deserve our equal consideration of receiving Eternal life.

    and not even if their just being just plain stupid.


    Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
    Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
     
  9. KayDee

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    Good grief what is all the animosity in this thread?

    I have had the same question Massdak is posing. I asked someone about God paying the penalty for our sins (past, present & future) and then some still go to hell, didn't that mean a double payment was paid for that unbelievers unbelief. The person I was talking to said Jesus died for every sin except unbelief. Unbelief can't be the unforgivable sin or else none of us would be saved. So, when is that sin forgiven? Like I never did, I don't think this person had really thought through her answer. Don't all sins need to be covered by the blood? We need to ask forgiveness for all future sins and repent but they were still nailed to the cross with Jesus. Do you understand my confusion?

    As I'm sure it is with Massdak, I am not meaning to judge anyone's salvation by asking this question.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  10. Me2

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    KayDee,

    I was only offering a scripture quote. not imposing a personal opinion..

    All sin is eventually forgiven. even unbelief.

    If Jesus christ is Lord. He has defeated Every Evil force against mankind. even death.

    (he has proven their vulnerabilty. the final battle is given to man (within jesus) to wrap up the war. until all evil is defeated. even death.

    Does God Say that something is unforgivable?.

    try this..

    Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
    Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

    instead of world replace this with age. the blasphemy against the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this age. this present age nor the age to come. (two ages)

    but does the bible state that their sin is never forgiven? (thats impossible)

    Why does it state this?

    because these fine candidates that do such (Blaspheme) are called the vessels of wrath. (children of disobedience) they are held in their present state (living by law) so as they fulfill roles designed by God.
    chosen in this age and during the next age are used along side the vessels of mercy to bring in the harvest of Gods creation. As romans 9-11 states. even they are to be forgiven and saved.

    today we (the church) are being called of God for the unfolding of his Plans. we are his tools. vessels of mercy (grace through faith) and the vessels of wrath (living by law) to be witnesses of those to be saved in the next age. even they get an opportunity to choose between the two examples that God puts before them.

    first, vessels of mercy are called and saved. also the vessels of wrath are procured and locked into their lifestyles and beliefs. in the next age, the main harvest is brought in and then finally the vessels of wrath are finally saved. and none are lost. and that takes time. apparently during the next age the vessels of wrath are to fulfill their role as in their present age as by not abiding "in christ".

    everythings explainable even unbelief and sins that "cant be forgiven".

    Me2
     
  11. Helen

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    massdak, first of all, Jesus Himself says there is a sin which cannot be forgiven. So this is a fact.

    If you go to Romans 1, a little more light is shed on this. Those who consistently refuse the truth they have revealed to them, specifically in creation, preferring to place their attention on other things, will eventually be given over to the lie. It's a choice thing, quite clearly.

    If a person PREFERS the lie, which God GIVES him over to AFTER the person has consistently been refusing the truth (in other words, this does deny predestination, as God has not given them over BEFORE they refuse the truth...), then that person has deliberately chosen against the only place where forgiveness of all sins can be found: in the Truth -- Jesus Christ.

    To say that therefore all sins were not forgiven on the cross is to deny both the meaning of what Jesus said and the meaning of what the writer to the Hebrews said. I think Romans 1 is probably the clarifying factor here.
     
  12. Daniel David

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    According to Revelation 21:8, 'unbelief' is just one of many other sins that people will be sent to hell over. Being a coward is enough to send one to hell also. Read the verse.
     
  13. massdak

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    we can all agree that all sin is forgiven when one is saved, correct?

    but my view of the question is that i believe God is forgiving his elect by even forgiving their unbelief and the evidence of that shows by the fact that a believer now is being sanctified by the Lord.

    now it is hard for me to see the arminian view that still sees people that are all on equal footing to know the truth of the gospel. it appears to me that a person who is not shown mercy and given the ability from God to know His Son then the other fact will remain that if not mercy then some will receive justice. some here seem to think of man more as a victim that God owes man mercy not justice.
     
  14. Helen

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    massdak, God owes us NOTHING! I do think that is something we can all agree on! But what I see in Calvinism is a concentration on the sovereignty of God but in a way that actually limits it and at the same time denies the balance of God's character, which is said to be love itself. He is also merciful.

    So yes, we all (adults) deserve hell on our own. That's just that. I don't want to discuss the children right now, as that is another argument altogether, so with your permission, we'll stick to cognizant adults.

    The Bible says God is NOT partial regarding people. He would be if predestination to salvation were true.

    The Bible says God loved the world. There is no qualifying word to 'world.'

    Moses and Joshua both commanded the Israelites to choose whom they would serve.

    Hebrews and other places tell us Christ died for all sin for all people.

    When we put these things together, what we come up with is that it is only when you refuse that forgiveness, i.e. refuse Christ, that you cannot be forgiven.

    God has offered and supplied and enables out of love. It is clear in the Bible that all have the capacity to respond either yea or nay to God according to what they know of the truth.

    God has forgiven every sin that can be forgiven, and Jesus told us there is one that can't be. If you walk away from the light, you get the dark. If you walk away from the Truth, you get the lie. If you walk away from forgiveness, you are not forgiven, by your own choice -- not because forgiveness is not waiting for you to accept it.

    So "Did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?" Perhaps the easiest way to put it is that Christ died so that should an unbeliever turn, he would find all his sins forgiven. But should be unbeliever insist on refusing forgivenss, God will no more 'force' that on him than He will force salvation.

    Our relationship with God is a love relationship, that that requires free will on both sides.

    God's sovereignty is big enough to allow us these choices. He not only knows what will be, He also knows all that might have been in every instance.
     
  15. KayDee

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    Me2
    Help me out here - this sounds like Universalism.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  16. Me2

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    Massdak,

    God chooses vessels of wrath and of mercy. We all enter into Gods family, yet vessel of mercy ARE predetermined to complete their process of sanctification.

    God also predetermines vessels of wrath. they enter into Gods family under the pretense that they will maintain in control over their will no matter what.

    they have "free will" to choose, right?. although when they arrive at the cross something occurs. they come to the end of their journey and realize they have to die to their self will. they have to abandon control and submit themselves to be judged before a holy God. lets just say this, they refuse!. they can say all the right words but lack in the understanding of a real personal relationship.

    Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
    Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    sound familiar?.. we approach God via the law. it is our holy measuring stick. its purpose is to prepare our old self willed carnal spirit to be baptised into the death of Christ.
    another junction where the vessel of wrath stops cold. they refuse to deny control of their will to any one and will not admit to themselves of even making a mistake or committing an error. they become paranoid of anyone judging them. they refuse to admit making an error and lie whenever actual sin is identified by the law within themselves.
    they lack humilty before their Savior and God.

    refusing to agree that the law is Good and holy. refusing to die to self will and refusing to submit to God their judge.

    to say this simply is to say they dont believe God has the power to forgive them, nor the mercy to offer to them. they change a holy merciful God into someone like themselves. Judges bent on only administering justice without the benefit of nothing that even closely resembles Mercy.

    They live a lie. They live in "hell"

    they live in fear of a God of "wrath" instead of a God of mercy. they cant comprehend a God of Love for all, or even one that offers AND delivers forgiveness towards all.

    why did christ die?. for the sins of his fathers creation. all of it.

    Me2
     
  17. KayDee

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    DD

    Thanks DD - that's a good verse to remember. I might be reading too much into the verse but if Christ died for everyone's sins, how could He bring these charges against them (unbelievers) again at the Judgement Seat?

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     
  18. Me2

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    Kaydee,

    Do you believe Christ died for the sins of all men proving this by the consummation and abolishment of the power of death. (2 tim 1:10)

    or did he die for only those deemed worthy?

    you see if one sin exists in one person. then Jesus Christ didnt defeat Death and cant be named Lord. even by his father,for death still has a right to exist, because sin still exists.

    "universal reconciliation" can be identified by the amount of mercy in your understanding of God.

    either some men are forgiven by a partially loving God. or all men are forgiven by an infinitely loving God. its all about your understanding and acceptance of who God is.

    well, Mines infinitely merciful.

    Me2
     
  19. Helen

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    A tree is known by its fruits, DD. It is not a matter of throwing the tree into the fire because of its fruits, but because the fruits identified what kind of tree it was.

    By your exegesis, Christ did an incomplete work on the cross, and I reject that idea entirely.
     
  20. KayDee

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    Me2

    No I don't - I believe He died for the "our" in that same verse where Paul refers back to the people he spoke of in verse 9. It is for them that he has abolished death.

    Mine is loving, merciful, just, transcendent, holy, sovereign & wrathful.

    In His Grace
    KayDee
     

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