did Enoch die ?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by wopik, Oct 10, 2004.

  1. wopik

    wopik
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    "By faith Abel..." - Heb. 11:4

    "By faith Enoch..." - Heb. 11:5

    "By faith Noah..." - Heb. 11:7

    "By faith Abraham..." - Heb. 11:8

    "These all died in faith, not having received the promises...." - Heb. 11:13, kjv.
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Abel died. Enoch did not. In fact Heb 11 makes it cleare that he did not see death. Neither did Elijah die.

    Furthermore - according to your view of death - in Matt 17 even Moses is not dead.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. blackbird

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    Enoch became a "was not"

    "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not: for God took him."

    For three hundred sixty five years the Bible says that Enoch walked with God!

    Everyday for those years---walking with God until Enoch reached a point where God just says, "En!! Why don't you just let Me go ahead and take you!" And ole En obeyed!! He went from Glory to Glory!!
     
  4. Gershom

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    Some teachers suggest that Enoch is a picture of the rapture of the church: he was taken up before the flood as the church will be taken up before the tribulation.

    Anyhow, the Bible is pretty clear that Enoch didn't die.

    Genesis 5:24
    And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

    Heb 11:5
    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
     
  5. Me2

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    Enoch was formed after the similtude of adam.

    Gen 5:23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
    Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

    If God takes any man made in a flesh body from this earth.
    the seperation of soul/spirit/body MUST take place.

    1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Enoch was under the same curse as adam.

    Enoch had to physically die. his body might have been laid in some distant location where no witnesses confirmed his death.
    but he HAD to die as all men born of the curse of adam physically die.
     
  6. blackbird

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    Me2---not according to the word from the Word!

    Hebrews 11:5 is crystal clear, "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him; for before his translation he had this testimony that he pleased God."

    Translated----means, to transfer, to change sides

    see death---means, to perceive with the outward senses. IOW---to stand there face to face with

    If at the rapture----we escape death---our vile bodies will be "changed" like unto His(Jesus') resurrected body---what makes you think God Almighty couldn't just go ahead and do it(change Enoch's vile body) ahead of time!!
     
  7. Gershom

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    We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, Paul says.
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Translated... Changed... The corruptible puts on imortality and incorruption...

    Kinda like bio-filters in the transporter on Star Trek for all you sci-fi types...

    The 'soul' and 'heart' makes it through... But, none of the contamination...

    If we change our view of death from a termination to that of change or translation... It might be more easily accepted for those that don't believe God can make 'Faith Exception' to His rule of it is appointed unto man once to die....

    The chief difference is that those translated do not 'taste death'... Do not feel the pain of death or the painful sorrow of parting...

    They are changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye...

    Much as we shall be when we are Raptured by Christ.
     
  9. Me2

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    to follow the law perfectly. one cannot touch anything corruptable.

    meaning the soul/spirit cant touch anything that is "dead".

    didnt jesus give up the ghost (spirit/soul) before he physically died?
    didnt he followed the law perfectly even unto death?.

    enoch was an OT "shadow" of the christ. yet he still was an OT saint. all OT saints physically died before being placed into the christ spirit.

    they saw corruption. they touched death.

    (remember the ALL MEN HAVE SINNED and come short of the Glory of God.)
    they touched their own dead body [​IMG]

    enter the crusifiction of Jesus Christ...today are not the elect resurrected from the dead before they physically die? are they NOW perfect in Christ?

    I have.

    my old mans spirit/soul has been placed into death and I have been resurrected from the spiritual dead by being placed inside or joined with the spirit of christ..(by faith and evidential experience!)

    now I cant touch my own physical death. (by faith)
    now I cant ever be corrupted. (by faith)
    now I follow the law perfectly (by faith)

    as in "my spiritual new man" within me

    the difference between Enoch and myself. I have evidence of the resurrected spirit WITHIN ME.
    Enoch had to accept these truths "by faith". not within him but outside himself.
    awaiting the future placement within this resurrected spirit. He saw this truth afar off. This will occur in the next age. (through grace)

    Enoch was a "shadow" of the future resurrected ELECT.
    He existed in faith, instead of the Reality of the resurrected spirit that exists for the Elect today..joined with the resurrected Christ.

    all that said..Enoch wasnt of the Elect.

    Yet God speaks of Enoch as being a "shadow" of a righteous man. a "shadow" of a perfect man.

    he still died physically. for all men who have been born on this planet will physically die.

    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    they all touched their own dead bodies.
    they all sinned.
    their all in death right now awaiting their own future resurrection.

    [ October 11, 2004, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
     
  10. wopik

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    Encoh is not in Heaven. JESUS SAID SO (Jn 3:13).

    blackbird has the correct sentence:
    "should not see death" -- a future death --- the Second Death (Rev 20: 6; 21: 8).

    Enoch will be in the First Resurrection (Rev 20:5) - the "better resurrection" (Heb. 11: 35), therefore, he will not experience DEATH --- the second time.
     
  11. SpiritualMadMan

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    That is literally true because the only ability to 'touch' anything granted to Soul or Spirit is through the body...

    If the Spirit and Soul leave the Body then they will not have touched a dead body...

    Corruption speaks of decay...

    Even translating out of the body a microsecond before death would preclude the Soul or Spirit from touching corruption...

    Also consider that as long as the Soul/Spirit remains in a Body it can't die thus it's own corruption isn't a factor...

    We can 'Wordsmith' all we want...

    But, what is the purpose? What do we prove?

    Are we saying, by the above two or so arguments, that we *all* will have to taste death *before* we can be raptured by Jesus...

    Because if God couldn't take Enoch unto Himself without Enoch dying then He can't take us that way either...

    Or, because Enoch didn't die then he isn't absent from the body... So, then he can't be present with the Lord... So, then, why should God take Him? If not to have Enoch close to Himself?

    No man hath ascended... After we are Translated we will no longer be Human... In this sense Enoch *could* be in heaven because he would not have been 'man'.

    Enoch "pleased" God... Without Faith it is impossible to please God... What kind of Faith? I would say saving Faith...

    The Walk Enoch had implies intimacy and close heart understanding...

    In the Spiritual Realm there is no past or future... (Brain Fry!)

    I speculate that having discussed the future Messiah, Enoch embraced what God was telling him and so pleased God... And, that Faith was counted to him as Righteousness...

    It is interesting that after pleasing God Abraham was left in place... But, if you closely read the story of Abraham you see that in spite of being the man we call Father of Faith... Faith was not 'natural' to him...

    Apparently, in this regard, Enoch had no blemishes so he was not left in place...
     
  12. blackbird

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    Interesting that Genesis never says that he died! Scan Genesis 5---over and over God says, "And he died" "And he died" "and he died"

    But in verse 24 the word from the Word says, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."

    Over in Hebrews 11---there was an extensive search---they went looking----found nothing! No Enoch! No bones! Nothing! He was not found!! Has not surfaced yet because he isn't here!! He got translated from the glory of walking with God on Earth to the glory of walking with God in Heaven!

    Since the laws of "Translation" are "in Christ" and Christ is before the beginning----what makes you guys think Jesus could not have applied that law of translation to Enoch??

    Which would be easier for Jesus to do?? Take Enoch with Him or say "Lazarus! Come forth!" And both simply obey!!!??? See??? Jesus took Enoch "from glory to glory" and called Lazarus "from glory to glory"----which would be easier---taking someone TO Heaven or calling someone FROM Heaven!!??
     
  13. Bro Tony

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  14. Me2

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    Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    Sometimes you might have to really read these passages over and over again until it sinks in…

    These all died. …Not receiving the promises.
    These all died. …Not receiving the promises.
    These all died. …Not receiving the promises.

    Could God have made it easier and not mention Enochs death…he mentioned it to explain Enochs mysterious disappearance.

    These All Died..Not Receiving the Promises..
     
  15. Bro Tony

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    "That he should NOT see death"----pretty clear. In dealing with the text it is clear that all that were mentioned died, except the one the text clearly says, he did not see death.

    There is no contridiction here, just a lack of understand what the text says.

    Bro Tony
     
  16. Me2

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    then Enoch can never be judged..

    Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    so why didnt God just translate Jesus so that He didnt see physical death?

    Oh yea...

    Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    all men are appointed to die. even Enoch.
     
  17. Bro Tony

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    This is clearly not always the case. As the Scripture says that Enoch, "did not see death"

    And in the New Testament it says that not all men will die.

    I Corinthians 15: 51-51
    And also I Thessalonians 4: 15-17
    In both of these passages we clearly see that not all men will die. It is the general course of men to enter eternity throught the gateway of death, but there are biblical texts that teach that is not always the way. It was not for Enoch, and it will not be for the church when the Lord calls her home to Himself.

    Bro Tony
     
  18. Gershom

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    AGAIN:

    Genesis 5:24
    And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

    Heb 11:5
    By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


    ABC, 123. What's so hard about it???

    [ October 11, 2004, 09:31 PM: Message edited by: Gershom ]
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Agreed. It seems pretty obvious.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. BobRyan

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    Enoch did not die and Elijah did not die and the living mentioned in 1Thess 4 will not die.

    And "oh by the way" - Christ did not die simply because people die - Christ gave Himself as substitutionary atoning sacrifice. That is not true of any human that has died in all of time - Christ alone died that unique death.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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