Did God change his mind?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Tazman, Dec 4, 2005.

  1. Tazman

    Tazman
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    Ezekiel 33:12

    12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live."

    God seems to say that if you had lived a righteous life before hand, but then repent of it and does evil, none of the righteous things done before will save him. The opposite goes for the wicked man who repents. His wickedness will not be remembered.

    God seems to be consistant in character with this thinking before and after the cross.

    The end of a mans life is soley dependant on the way he decides to live.

    Did God Change?

    Any thoughts
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Mal 4 says "I do not change therefore you are not destroyed".

    Heb 13 says that "Christ is the same yesterday today and forever".

    God is not "a man that He should change His mind".

    So in Matt 18 we see the same point made about "forgiveness revoked" as we see in Ezek 18.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Tazman

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    My heart is there all the way. What is hard for me is knowing this and yet know people still believe OSAS. How can you truley take God seriously in the rebukes and threats if you feel He doesn't have a leg to stand on.

    I once asked a believer of OSAS what does Rev 3:1-5 Support that doctrine. He never answered.

    To the angel[a] of the church in Sardis write:
    These are the words of him who holds the seven spiritsof God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. 3Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches

    Jesus himself write to the churches (church: his saved people, his body) calling them to change and keep garments clean. Why would he say keep them clean unless they can get dirty? Why would he say blot unless it is possible to do so to a Christian?

    Does God just make idol threats? How can a person really gain the fullness of the message if it can't touch them because they beleave they are exempt?

    I mean, really?
     
  4. Tazman

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    OSAS make God seem different in the old testament than in the new. Why is that?
     
  5. wopik

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    in a two-minute horse race, it only matters where you are in the last few seconds.


    the first horse out of the gate isn't necessarily the first horse over the finish line.


    1Cor 9:24 -- (Holman Christian Standard Bible)

    Do you not know that the runners in a stadium all race, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
     
  6. Helen

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    Tazman, on the Ezekiel verse, let Bible explain Bible. Jesus said that out of the heart come the actions. The passage in Ezekiel that you quoted is preceded by the House of Israel saying to the Lord that their sins weigh them down so they cannot live. You quoted God's response.

    The righteousness being talked about is the external obedience to various laws and traditions. This will not save a man when he disobeys. It is not enough to practice righteousness. The external is not what saves -- see Matthew 23 about that one! You will notice in the Ezekiel verse that the 'righteous' man is trusting in his own righteousness to save him. That is the clue there. However the man who is wicked and under sentence of death is showing his evil heart and then if he repents and changes, showing by his actions of restoration that his heart has been changed, this man will live. This man has repented and God has changed his life from within. In verse 20, God warns, "I will judge each of you according to his own ways." This is entirely in line with the epistle of James in which he shows so clearly that the actions show the condition of the heart.

    As for Jesus' letter to the church as Sardis, it falls along the same lines. Calling yourself a believer and living like the world contaminates the church. Enough people like this in the church and the church -- that body of believers in that area -- will become fatally infected, even though a few remain truly faithful and born again believers. Others will simply follow the 'leaders' -- those with wolves' hearts but dressed as shepherds, and teaching strange doctrines that are not of the Lord. God is calling them back from that before the entire group of them is beyond repentance.

    As far as blotting out of the book of life, it is my personal firm belief that we are all born WITH our names in the book of Life. All the babies and children are HIS. He said so. He said their angels always see the face of the Father in heaven. It is when we know the law and sin comes to life within us that we die spiritually, or are separated from God -- see Romans 7 -- and unless there is repentance and a full giving up to Christ, the name will be blotted out of the book of Life. That phrase 'blotted out' is used too many times in the Bible for it to be an accident.

    I am convinced that once a person has been born again that there is no way he can lose his salvation. I am also convinced that the children, babies, profoundly retarded and maybe even teens before 18 or 19 all have their names in the Book of Life.

    That is my belief and it is hotly and often disputed here. Nevertheless, the two passages that bothered you above both seem to fit in with that belief.
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Rev 12-17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    The scripture above (bold part) says that the Remnant keep the commandments of God, and yet Christians today say that there are no commandments that we must keep, neither old or new covenant.

    My question is, who are these people in Rev. 12 that are keeping the commandments, and why does it also say,"and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?

    Selah,

    Tam
     
  8. wopik

    wopik
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    Tazman


    very astute!


    ------------------------------------------

    tamborine lady

    this is APOSTACY.


    JESUS was a teacher of the LAW.

    His first major sermon -- the Sermon on the Mt. -- was above all things, a sermon about the LAW.


    And very early in the message He speaks to a mistake we must not make. Jesus was very concerned that His audience would not understand where He was going and would come to a wrong conclusion.


    And so Matthew 5 verse 17, He said this, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy them, but to fulfil them."


    http://www.cemnetwork.com/btw/btwcurrentprograms.php


    http://www.cemnetwork.com/essay/essay.php?eid=37 -- Basic Christianity - the opening Gambit
     
  9. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Wopik,

    Very good! I agree! ! [​IMG]


    Peace,

    Tam
     
  10. wopik

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  11. wopik

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    all mankind is required by divine law to keep holy the seventh day of the week.

    The Sabbath command is one of the Ten Commandments, a law which is not only scheduled to outlast this universe but which every soul on earth is obliged to observe.

    Therefore as long as heaven and earth shall last, the seventh day of the week is the Sabbath day.

    Disobedience of Yahweh's law, of which the Sabbath commandment is merely a part, is sin (Rom. 7:7). These unequivocal facts cannot be rejected without serious consequences.
    (Exodus 20:8-11, Matthew 5:17-19, 1 John 3:4)
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Very true
     
  13. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG] right again, I concur.

    Tam
     
  14. Helen

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    Please take a look at something God said about the Sabbath: The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.
    Exodus 31:16-17

    I would ask you then, are you Israelites? If so, then you must keep the seventh day Sabbath.

    But as for Christians, the Lord is our Sabbath. It is still the best to work for six days and rest one, but in Christ the full law is fulfilled and we will not be judged by it.

    That does not mean we do not keep the law. For when you are a born again Christian, the Holy Spirit lives within you (Romans 8:9) and therefore, as a slave to righteousness, the Christian has the desire to obey and please the Lord. So although our SABBATH is in Christ, a day of rest will be kept, whichever day of the week it is.

    You will note that the commandment in Exodus 20 simply says to rest one day in seven. Paul reminds in the New Testament that we are not to argue about which day that is.

    You are choosing to argue. That appears to be the very disobedience that should not be a hallmark of born again Christians.
     
  15. tamborine lady

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    Helen,

    I didn't see an answer to this scripture.

    What commandments are they keeping and who are they?

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  16. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Well since no one else wants to answer it ,I will answer it myself!

    Who are they? They are the remnant that has lived through the tribulation.

    They are keeping the commandments of God through the help of the Holy Ghost.

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    When we walk in the Spirit we will keep all the commandments (thru the Holy Ghost),and they have the testimony of Jesus Christ!!

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  17. Tazman

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    Originally posted by Helen:


    Wow, you really came to that conclusion quickly with what seems to be total disregard for Gods for what God specifically said.

    Helen, lets quickly put aside judging Gods intentions with your misunderstanding. First, with every command given God always desired the hearts of his people, and there were plenty of people of the Old Testament "LAW" (as you say) that Gave God their hearts through complete obedience and willful submission. They didn't focus more on their inability than they focused on pleasing the One they truly love (unlike some people who don't understand the connection and excuse God's commands for the sake of their unwillingness to love him through obeying His command (By the way, his commands in the new testament is not the "Law" as you read it)

    THE RIGHTEOUSNESS SPOKEN ABOUT IS NOT JUST PLAIN OBEDIENCE, BUT ITS ALL TO DO WITH THE HEART OF LOVING GOD. PEOPLE LEAVE THE RIGHTEOUS PATH BY FOLLOWING THE WICKED ONE. REMEMBER, GOD STILL HAD GRACE BEFORE THE CROSS.


    I'd agree if that were the case. I don't think God would speak of a righteous person as righteous if he were not according to God's standards.

    'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it.


    Question: God CLEARLY says that the righteousness will not save the righteous man when HE DISOBEY. Only when he disobey. Only when he (the righteous man) disobey. So will it (righteousness) save him (the righteous man) if he continues to obey (walk the righteous path)?


    I like the way you try to twist that, but look at the entire context:

    "The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done."

    Did you hear that? God says Himself that even if HE says to a righteous man (obviously while the person is righteous) that he will live, but if the righteous becomes wicked he will die die!

    Did he change his mind?

    Make a note that trusting in your own righteousness will result in death. So it should be obvious that him (the righteous man) being called righteous by God does not depend on trust in himself, but rather trust in God. Wow! Yep, even OT followers were capable of believing in God and being called righteous and not of their own accord, but of faith/commitment to GOD. Yep check that out. [​IMG]

    So, the question remains can a righteous man lose his salvation if he later turns away from God and trust in his own Righteousness? According to God in Ez 33?

    ------------------------------------------------

    Be careful. Stick to the context. Jesus adress Church. Says to Church (his body) that some have kept themselves

    Thank you for specifying your own conjecture/opinion, but seeing as though it doesn't fit within the context we can't work with it. I'm sure you will agree.

    This is still an extension of your conjecture/opinion.

    Heres a test: Read the letter without adding your adjustments or clarification, how would an unlearned person come to your conclusion. Use this text only or all the letters written. Play nice.

    Rev 3
    4 Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy. 5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

    Why say it if he can't do it? Why?
    Also, why would Jesus concern himself with people who can't get dirty, unless that would affect their standing with Him?

    You have fail to answer any of my questions without correcting Gods words to fit your meaning. I purposely Chose his direct words so that you can't change them to fit your doctrine. Try again.

    It seems that your conscience is letting you know of an age of accountability.

    In Christ.
    Stefon.
     
  18. tamborine lady

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  19. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Rev 12-17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    O.K., can anybody tell me what you think this scripture means? What commandments are they keeping, and who are they?

    If we are not under the law, why have they kept commandments and what commandments did they keep??

    Working for Jesus,

    Tam
     
  20. preacher

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    Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
    Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
    Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
    Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
    These were the total Law in the mind of Christ,
    You have to remember that the main reason all the externals of the law were given (thou shall/shall not touch, eat, say, etc.)were becaust it was "expected" by His people. Even now we as a world can't take things simple, it has to be complicated Or we don't want much to do with it. You know...believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ & thou shall be saved. Just believing is too simple, we have to have some physical part or it doesn't feel right.
    If I understand correctly, the remnant would be saved Jews which through keeping the "two great commandments show that they Truley have the testimony of Christ in themselves.
    Satan has always wanted to destroy Israel, but I would have to think that believing Jews are a double "insult" to him.
     

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