Did God Choose Some To Damnation Scriptural

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by salzer mtn, Oct 28, 2015.

  1. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn
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    In my understanding of election, God chose a number that no man can number before the world was to salvation to be revealed to them in time and the rest of mankind he left them to their sin's. But in some circles it is being preached God not only chose the elect to salvation but He also chose the rest to be damned. I guess this is called double predestination. I know that God knows all things and He knew Adam would fall in the garden but he gave Adam a commandment of what not to do but Adam did it anyway so God cannot be charged for Adam's sin. If God Chose a certain number to damnation couldn't their sin be placed on God ?
     
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  2. MB

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    Being chosen for Salvation does not mean that Salvation is guaranteed. The chosen still have to come to the light. No one has grace with out faith first

    What scripture is there that suggest that some are chosen to be Damned.?
    MB
     
  3. salzer mtn

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    Prov16: 4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
     
  4. TCassidy

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    Double Predestination is one of the hallmarks of Hyper-Calvinism (adding to the 5 Heads of Doctrine).

    God did not have to predestine anyone for hell. All people are already destined for hell because of our fallen condition. It is the Gracious intervention of God that delivers some of us from that terrible condition.

    Double Predestination is just as anti-biblical as the above statement "Being chosen for Salvation does not mean that Salvation is guaranteed. The chosen still have to come to the light. No one has grace with out faith first."

    Grace must precede faith or the damned would continue to be the enemy of God. (Romans 8:7.) It is God's enabling Grace that allows us to believe, repent, and submit to His Divine authority. (1 John 5:1.) :)
     
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  5. Martin Marprelate

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    Baptist 1689 Confession 3:3.

    By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestined or foreordained to eternal life through Christ Jesus (1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:34), to the praise of His glorious grace Eph. 1:5-6). Others are left to act in their sin to their just condemnation to the praise of His glorious justice (Rom. 9:22-23; Jude 4).
     
    #5 Martin Marprelate, Oct 28, 2015
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  6. robustheologian

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    I believe in double predestination (election and reprobation)...just not in the traditional hyper-Calvinistic sense. My definition of reprobation is non-election. So God choosing not to elect someone to salvation is in a PASSIVE (or defective, or negative) sense choosing them for hell.
     
  7. Rippon

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    Some noteworthies holding to double predestination:

    Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Beza, Zanchius, Turretin, Jn. Edwards, John Gill, A.m. Toplady, Charles Hodge, A.A. Hodge, B.B. Warfield, Bavinck, A.W. Pink, Herman Hoeksema, Gordon Clark, Robert Reymond, R. C. Sproul, James M. Boice and James White.

    That is not an exhaustive list. Btw, someone not-so-noteworthy also believes in it ...me.
     
    #7 Rippon, Oct 29, 2015
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  8. salzer mtn

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    Rippon
    John Gill Quote} yea, even the wicked for the day of evil;
    this is added to illustrate the general proposition in the preceding clause, and to obviate an objection, that might be taken from the destruction of the wicked, against all things being for the glory of God; for even the destruction of the wicked, which is under a divine appointment, is for his glory. It is not the sense of this text, nor of any other passage of Scripture, that God made man to damn him; nor is this to be inferred from the doctrine of predestination: God made man, neither to damn him, nor to save him, but for his own glory; and that is secured, whether in his salvation or damnation; nor did or does God make men wicked; he made man upright, and he has made himself wicked; and, being so, God may justly appoint him to damnation for his wickedness, in doing which he glorifies his justice. "The day of evil", or "evil day", is the day of wrath and ruin, unto which wicked men are reserved by the appointment of God, agreeably to the Targum, Septuagint, Syriac, and Arabic versions. This is true of wicked angels, wicked men, and particularly of that wicked one, the man of sin and son of perdition, antichrist; the word here used is in the singular number. RIPPON, I have been reading John Gill on this subject and notice in the paragraph that Gill said, God did not make men wicked, and he made himself wicked. GILL didn't believe God made man wicked just to damn him, but in other scripture on this subject Gill said, God chose the elect to salvation and passed by or left the rest of mankind in their sin's. IMO Adam is the man that predestinated mankind to hell by the fall, but God in eternity past had already predestinated a number to be saved. Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
     
    #8 salzer mtn, Oct 29, 2015
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  9. Rippon

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    I know Gill did not believe that God made certain ones just for the purpose of damning them. I don't hold to that either.

    You have some mistaken ideas about Double-Predestination.
     
  10. salzer mtn

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    2. God's Word Does Not Use This Confusing Phrase, Because It Is Unnecessary

    Even if this were in some way intellectually accurate (which I don not believe that it is), why would a conscientious Christian truly concerned for the Church, insist on using such a term which #1) wasn't used in scripture, #2) is a misnomer and decidedly confusing, and #3)and is more often than not, misapplied and misunderstood? The only logical answers I can come up with is either our own ego, our pride, or our recent Church traditions. The truth is, this term is unnecessary, mostly counterproductive, and inordinately divisive for no good reason. So much so that many theologians who might 'intellectually' believe in what they believe some Reformed theologians mean when using the term "Double Predestination," will defer to call it that. And in my view, rightly so! For there is only one Predestination mentioned in the Bible, and that is the Predestination of Christ and His own. To label God's Sovereign right to choose some (and thu not choose others), a Double Predestination, is I believe to take undue liberties with the word of God.
    God could have very easily inspired His prophets to write that the wicked were [proorizo] or 'predestinated' to be condemned, but He didn't. Was that an oversight, or did God purposely inspire the word used for the ordaining of the wicked to condemnation as a different word? Again, the answer 'should be' obvious. Is it different by coincidence, accident, or is God making a distinction? God knows what He is doing, even when we do not. God says the Elect are those Predestinated, [proorizo], and those condemned are Preordained [prographo], and why can't theologians just leave it at that. Why must we invent phrases and adjectives to conjure up new ways to confuse people? Is it a misguided elitist intellectualism, or is it inspired by a sincere desire for most Christians to come to clarity in truth? Is it to the Glory of God to confuse the many in order to receive praise of a few? As Christians are we, attempting to make a point, at the expense of missing the real point of the gospel?
    I'll bet most people are unaware that The Reformers and the Puritans simply called it, "The Doctrine of Predestination." You would have never guessed by Reformed Theologians today. They called it that because there is one Predestination. There was not this attempt to make election of the Saints and the ordaining of the wicked by their non-election to condemnation, one and the same Predestination. God ordained both, He did not Predestinate both. To which we whole heartily agree. Yes, we confess God chose to save some and not others before the foundation of the world, and this has never been in debate. But He did not predestinate anyone to be condemned, this is never declared in scripture, and we should not declare it 'as' scripture. Unfortunately, many people use the word Predestination as if it simply means God simply decided. As in, God decided to save some, and decided not to save others. But God didn't use the word decided, or ordained, or appointed, because the word Predestination delineates more than that, as illustrated in it's use for only the elect.
    So often when we read what many of these theologians who speak of "Double Predestination" write, it is more times than not a mostly Biblical doctrine. But it's truth is hidden in unadvisedly unbiblical clothing. The value of these writings are often overshadowed and obscured by these valueless terms like Double Predestination" and "Double Election." We who believe in Predestination most certainly believe in the destiny of the non-elect being ordained by God from before, because God is sovereign and knows all, but He did not Predestinate them unto condemnation. More than semantics, it is a mindset of what is right and wrong. Playing word games in insisting that, "if God allowed it, then He Predestinated it," is of no value and is certainly self-serving. It should be self-evident that allowing something to happen is not the same as Predestining it to happen. While it may 'seem' to be valid to speak against the belief that God only determines those who will be saved, upon closer evaluation we understand that "ALL" were to be condemned, and God 'did' determine those to be saved out of them. And in doing this, the rest, by God's immutability, are ordained to remain in their condemned state. God didn't add anything, He didn't put on an extra condemnation, they were all under condemnation for their sin to start with.
    We know that the Bible is it's own interpreter, and the scriptures their own dictionary. Thus we can determine what God intends in His use of the word Predestination by where and how 'He' uses it. And in humility and in being honest with ourselves (which is rare these days), when we see that God always uses it in context of Christ and His elect, then why would we use it in context of the condemned? God has not done this, so are we wiser than God, or just plain stubborn? http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/fag/double_predSearch(ctrl+E)
     
    #10 salzer mtn, Oct 29, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  11. Jerome

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    The link to what you're (not) quoting from doesn't work.
     
  12. Jerome

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    Thread discussing this gem from John Calvin:

    "We may rest assured that God would never have suffered any infants to be slain except those who were already damned and predestined for eternal death."
     
  13. salzer mtn

    salzer mtn
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    Google double predestination and you can find it.
     
  14. TCassidy

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    I agree. Gill did not go beyond historic Augustinianism. Nor did many of the others Rippon listed. Double Predestination is an active consequence of a decree of God, not the passive result of not being elect.
    Mine too. But I do not believe reprobation equates to double predestination. :)
     
  15. TCassidy

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    You must understand that Calvin was not making a statement regarding double predestination in the above quote (even though he did in other places). All he is saying in the above quote is that a non-elect infant is already condemned due to his sin nature.
     
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  16. tyndale1946

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    The Sovereign Grace Baptist Church I grew up in I never heard of the doctrine of double predestination.

    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    To my understanding the ALL in this verse is the whole Adamic race of mankind... Out of the All God elected a vast un numberless multitude that no man could number... Out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation... Out of to me means God performed a work... The work was the sacrifice of Jesus Christ... That is the only reason they are out of!... What about those not elected?... God didn't elect them and in not doing so left them where they were in their sins... Where we would also be if God did not elect us... Which refutes the doctrine of double predestination... Brother Glen
     
  17. BrotherJoseph

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    Hi Brother MB,

    Consider the following scriptures to support the predestination of the reprobate,

    "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation..." (Jude 1:4)

    "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Peter 2:8)

    "...vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" ( Romans 9:22)

    Brother Joe
     
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  18. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother Glen,

    The elect were not chosen in Adam, but rather IN Christ before the foundation of the world, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world: (Ephesians 1:4). This verse teaches the actual order of TULIP should actually be UTLIP and sets forth the doctrine of eternal vital union as the elect are said to be "in" Christ before the creation of the world (but the latter point is perhaps a topic for a different thread as it does not deal with the OP).

    God bless,

    Brother Joe
     
  19. kyredneck

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    I suppose this definition of 'hyper' came about since the invention of mission boards.

    Tom Butler: "Everyone to the right of me is 'hyper'." I think that's a true sense of the gist of how most mean intend 'hyper'. Mainstream PBs consider Calvinists that believe God predestined everything that happens (like the mosquito that bit you last night) to be 'hyper'.
     
  20. BrotherJoseph

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    Brother KY,

    I assume you would classify me as "hyper" in that I believe God predestinated everything that comes to pass, but proceed with caution brother, most non PB's would classify all PB's (both conditionalists and absoluters) as hyper Calvinists due to our beliefs that the gospel is for the elect only not the reprobate, that the gospel contains "no offers of salvation", but rather is a declaration of accomplished salvation through Christ, also because PBs believe they are justified legally over 2,000 years ago at Calvary (or some take the position of eternal justification) and therefore that faith in the gospel only justifies a sinner in his conscience experientially when they learn they were legally justified before they were born by Christ But we know this is the truth as scripture tells us" For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life" (Romans 5:10) and "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Hebrews 10:14). If one wants to label me a hyper, so be it, though that is not a scriptural term, nor one I would use to describe myself, but the saints in the New Testament were labeled which much worst terms.
     

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