Did God elect and predestine your children?

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben Elohim, Feb 26, 2005.

  1. Ben Elohim

    Ben Elohim
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    Did God, before creation, elect and predestine your children to become Christians?

    Do you pray for the salvation of your children? What good will it do if they are not elect and predestined? What good will it do if they ARE elect and predestined?

    Did God, before creation, elect and predestine your children to become Christians?

    How about their children? And their children? And their children? And so on....

    Do you realize the absurd implications if you say "YES"? Do you realize the implications if you say "NO"?

    Did God, before creation, elect and predestine your children to become Christians?
     
  2. Ben Elohim

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    How bout you PL? Got an answer?
     
  3. dianetavegia

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    No. I do not believe God predestined any of us to salvation or damnation. I believed we were blessed to be born in a Christian country, which in itself is a gift, but I believe the Holy Spirit woes all unto HIM and it is up to our free will to accept or decline the gift of salvation. I know that my God knew before creating this world who would and would not accept that gift but that He left it totally up to our choosing.

    Yes. I pray for my children and grandchildren and since seeing the choice of marriage partners by some of my children, have begun to pray for God to prepare the spouse he created for those who remain unmarried and prepare my children to be the husbands God wants them to be.

    What good will it do? I pray for their hearts to be softened and for their eyes to be opened. I pray for their protection and that the Lord will keep them from any temptations to sin. I pray that God will use them to further HIS kingdom work and bless them with children of their own.

    I do not believe God is the author of evil and to say God predestined some to live ungodly, sinful lives is making Him accountable for that sin.
     
  4. Ben Elohim

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    Well you see the problem is:

    If the Calvinist says YES, he is caught in the dilemma of admitting all his descendents would also be elect since his children would also need to answer YES regarding those children... and so on and so on..... In a thousand years that would result in literally millions of Elect people. Anyone who has been involved with family history research knows this all too well. It becomes so unweildy it is nearly impossible for anyone to list all a far ancestor's descendents. And anyone who realizes how this works would realize that nearly every in USA with a European background would be elect since most of them will have at least one ancestor who was "Elect."

    Observe. Families were quite large until this century commonly having 6-10 children. However, we will be quite conservative here to account for child deaths and the like.

    If we have roughly 4 generations of families per century and 4 children per family:

    Generation 1: 2 (Elect man and wife)
    Generation 2: 4
    Generation 3: 16
    Generation 4: 64
    Generation 5: 256
    Generation 6: 1024
    Generation 7: 4096
    Generation 8: 16,384
    Generation 9: 65,536
    Generation 10: 262, 144
    Generation 11: 1,048,576
    Generation 12: 4, 194, 304
    Generation 13: 16,777,216
    Generation 14: 67,108,864
    Generation 15: 268, 435,456 (roughly pop. of USA)
    Generation 16: 1 billion people.

    As you can see, this rough example illustrates how quickly in time a person can end up with thousands and even millions of descendents. You also have to remember that the first four children married people from other families and so did their children and so on. Hence you have a multitude of ancestors for each of these people's descendents.

    The simple point here is that the Calvinist cannot say "yes" or even "likely" because it would result in massive numbers of people being "the elect."

    If he says NO, then he is admitting that he has absolutely no idea whether or not he can help his children avoid the fires of hell since, according to his own doctrine, no one can change anyone else's ultimate destiny. Put bluntly, he never has any real assurance about his little children whatsoever.
     
  5. Monergist

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    Do you believe Acts 2:39?

    Act 2:39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."
     
  6. TomMann

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    While I cannot say with certainty that God has elected any or all of my children, or their children.... to salvation, I can say with certainty that he has elected all of His children to that salvation... and that gives me great comfort and joy!!!!!!!
     
  7. Monergist

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  8. johnp.

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    Ben.

    Yes of course He did.
    Yes of course I do.
    None whatsoever.
    Why yes He did! :cool:
    I haven't seen any scripture for this but there is a good reason for confidence. Since there is a family history of Christianity the decendants are likely to be familiar with the Church.
    No.
    Yes.

    PS 103:17 But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him, and his righteousness with their children's children--18 with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey his precepts.
    EZE 37:24 " `My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.' " :cool: That is for our comfort and joy. Heaven would not be Heaven without them.

    What's the problem with that? I believe the children that die are saved anyway and child mortality was and remains very high. What do you think, Calvinist's believe Heaven empty or crowded?

    And the problem with that is what exactly?

    With one eye Eli :cool: and the other in trust of God's word no Christian should fear for their children they are safe and God wants us to know that. EZE 37:24-28 above.

    What is more natural than sheep giving birth to the sheep? What is more natural than a loving Father giving His Children to His Children? That's lovely that is.
    I think most of my Church are from Christian homes. A strange breed.

    johnp.
     
  9. dianetavegia

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    Monergist, softening a heart or preparing a spouse (think keeper at home, submissive wife) is NOT the same as God preprogramming salvation and damnation so NO I am not contradiciting my serious objections to Calvin's theology and his followers. I cannot for the life of me figure out why a Calvinist would pray for health, finances, problems... !
     
  10. PastorGreg

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    Perhaps because God commanded us to.
     
  11. Ben Elohim

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    Was Noah elect?
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    One must believe so, for without Noah there would be no Human race today.
     
  13. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi Wes;
    If Noah were elect then we should ask how is it that God said;
    Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
    I mean if He were elect as Calvinism claims then How come God would even think such a thing. It was after God spoke these words that He comes to knowledge of Noah and his righteousness. I believe election was of the Jews. Noah wasn't a Jew.
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    Though I agree with you ILUVLIGHT, Look at all the successful "Best Actor's in a leading role", "the key players" throughout the Old Testament. What did they all have in common? FAITH in God!

    Then there are the "villains" who were also God's elect in that they existed in order for God to demonstrate His sovereignty through which God receives Honor and Glory. Do you not think that these "Best supporting actors" are also God's elect?

    Yes, the Jews are God's "Chosen People", through whom God receives honor and glory. But I believe that all the Key players throughout the history of mankind are likewise "elect of God" in that they behave in the manner that God "elects" that they should, so that God can have his Glory and Honor, through his Sovereignty over all mankind.
     
  15. dianetavegia

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    Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    Good point! Did God get mad at Himself for making those that He destroyed "the unelect"? :rolleyes: They wouldn't be to blame if the Calvin followers are correct!
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    It is also interesting that there was no "Law" during the time of Noah, so how could those be "judged by the Law"? God did not judge them because of their failure to obey the Law, but rather because they turned their backs on God. Sure sounds like "Lack of Faith" to me.

    Then we look at Noah, and see that He had Faith sufficient for His family of wife and three sons and their wives. It was Noah's FAITH in God that saved him and his family, and all the pairs of animals that were saved from the wrath of God by being in the ARK.
     
  17. johnp.

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    Wes.

    Judgement can only be done according to a set of laws. No law no judgement. The wages of sin is death and that alone. The people of Noah's time were guilty of sin and were judged accordingly.
    How does this work then Wes? You say Noah had enough faith for all his family yet God judges us you say on our faith condition. Did the rest on board, bar the animals, not have a good faith condition?
    Why do they not get a judgement on their faith condition?

    johnp.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Judgment can only be done according to laws, The purpose of the law was to identify sin, then because there was no law at Noah's time, what sins were the people then judged by? OR, are they yet to be judged?

    Noah's faith in God is what saved him, and his family. Noah had faith in God, and his family obviously had faith in Noah else they would have abandoned him and joined the rest of the population that was subsequently destroyed. Now Noah's wife and son's must have also learned from Noah to have Faith in God. But it was to Noah that God spoke since Noah was the Head of the Household, and therefore the responsible individual for his family. If Noah had not have faith in God, do you think God would have turned to the Eldest son and asked him to build an Ark?
     
  19. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    You have enough trouble dealing with reality do not enter the Twilight Zone! :cool: What was is.
    RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
    There is never a time or place that the law of God is not.
    But how does that work if there was no law? How can sin be identified without there first being a law that there is any sin to identify? :cool: The wages of sin is death and only the wages of sin is death. People died in the flood they had been judged by the law while they had the gospel preached to them.
    The Ark is Jesus. The whole family was in Jesus. Judgement Day typed. All in Christ are kept safe from the storm to come. Hell for those outside the Ark.

    johnp.
     
  20. johnp.

    johnp.
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    Wes.

    Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.

    They did not and were sent to a place of punishment and are there now waiting for the resurrection

    2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.

    Punishment is forever. Forever conscious of pain and suffering. " Peter 2:9 says God is holding those He hates and He continues their punishment now in the state they will spend the rest of forever in.

    johnp.
     

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