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Did God ever prevent people from believing the gospel?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Dec 24, 2009.

  1. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    No - I believe that God's Word and call is effectual and if Jesus Christ called all who heard Him, all would have followed Him. Instead, He did not reveal all to everyone because He willed that not all would repent and follow Him. That's what He said.

    How do you know that the hardening is not the same as the original condition man is born in?

    Wait - you say man does not seek God on their own but then they do?

    All men hear the message but Scripture says that none seek God.
     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    The bible tells us: Acts 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

    This passage, which is quoted from the OT several times in the NT, explains that the Jews hearts had GROWN calloused. THEY WEREN'T BORN CALLOUSED. It also clearly explains their ability had they not become hard. "OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE." He even goes on to contrast the Gentiles who "WILL LISTEN."

    No, I said there is a difference between men not being able to seek God and men not being able to respond to God's seeking of him. Make sense?

    Actually, not all men do here the message of scripture, but that's beside the point. None seek God ON THEIR OWN, but thankfully God has not left us alone, has He? Now, the question is can we respond to Him? I say that we can and must or we will be judged accordingly.
     
  3. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Therein lies your problem. You're trying to compare analogy to an analogy, which makes no sense. You're presuming that being born blind means being blindfolded has no effect. A man born blind still has daylight cast upon his eyes, but the signals don't get to his brain. A man with a blindfold has his eyes covered, and the daylight never gets to his eyes. Both blind men and sighted men can be blindfolded, but the reason they can't see is slightly different. The end result is the same. So, like I said, being born blind and being blindfolded are not mutually exclusive.
     
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, you believe that the blindfold (i.e. God's hardening) has an effect? Ok, so what is that effect? And what is its purpose?

    So are you saying then that a man is born with the ability to hear the gospel truth but not understand it and once he is further hardened by God then he can't even hear the gospel any more? I'm trying to read between the lines here since you won't just simply come out and answer the question so please correct me if I'm misinterpreting your quasi answer.

    So what is the reason a totally depraved can't see? And what is the reason a person being hardened by God can't see?
     
  5. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Responsibility and ability go hand in hand. You cannot have responsibility without ability.
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: very true.
     
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    If you're speaking strictly in regards to a linear if/then timeline, you're correct. Hyperarminianism fails to take God's omnitemporal nature into account. God isn't limited by a linear timeline. A person being elect does not, therefore, absolve a person of personal responsibility.
    You, not I, made the blindfold analogy. I'm simply saying that a blindfold and blindness aren't necessarily related.
     
    #47 Johnv, Dec 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2009
  8. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Truth must be truth, and for one to be responsible, one must be able regardless of time. Responsibility always requires ability. That is immutable truth.
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Indeed, but that doesn't in any way negate the concept of election.
     
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, John, this conversation has run its course. Apparently you think you are answering a question and I don't, so we are wasting each other's time. Thank you for you consideration on this matter. Blessings to you.

    Is there any Calvinist who will address the question of the OP please? Thank you.
     
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    It doesn't negate it, it helps define it.
     
  12. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Judas had every opportunity, of his own volition, to understand and believe the gospel of Jesus. He even developed a guilty conscience about what he had done, but God cast him aside to suicide and not salvation.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    God was guilty of Judas' suicide? God caused him to sin?
     
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Webdog, I don't know if you have picked up on this but Johnv's statements not only don't make any sense but they rarely address the actual topic at hand. For example, just break down this one statement of his. You said, "Responsibility and ability go hand in hand. You cannot have responsibility without ability." He says...

    So, here he is affirming that in our linear reality of time and space responsibility and ability go hand in hand. Then he says...

    First, what in the heck is Hyperarminianism? Second, what does the nature of God existing during all points of time have to do with the ability of man's response?

    So, because God is eternally transcendent his election of some and not others somehow removes the need for ability to be associated with responsibility? Talk about non sequintur! He makes a leap from God's eternal nature being the cause for absolving a person's responsibility without any explanation, biblical support or justification. Honestly, I think he is just putting all the big words he knows together and drawing ridiculous conclusions. I wouldn't waste your time...
     
    #54 Skandelon, Dec 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2009
  15. Jedi Knight

    Jedi Knight Well-Known Member
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    Every man has enough light to condemn him,but does not have enough light to save him unless he accepts the gospel.
     
  16. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Yes. God does prevent certain people from believing. It is an act of judgment against them because they have hardened their own hearts against God.

    God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but not until he hardened his own heart against God.

    Paul tells us in Romans 1 that God will allow people to have want they want, which is to live according to their own desires apart from God.

    Ro*1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;



    The point at which God judges in this way is known only to God. But it's clear that God does harden certain people. He is blinding the Jews (as a nation) because of their rejection of Christ. But He only does this hardening because of people first hardening their own hearts against Him. That is why I call it a judgment.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    I tend to believe that God's judicial hardening has been planted into our being naturally. For instance, if you "harden your heart" to your alarm clock when it goes off, eventually you won't even hear it. I do the same to my kids when they are screaming :)

    In this instance, God's stating "I will harden..." could be like me saying "I'm going to make that person mad" and then going over to them and kicking them in the shin. While I did what I said (make them mad) it was a secondary response to my physical interaction, similar to God putting that mechanism in us to shun things we do not desire.
     
  18. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    Ya know, if you stuck to engaging in discussion rather than character assassination, you'd be taken more seriously. My statements make sense and address the topic. You simply don't want to accept my response.
    Uh, of course. Our existence is limited strictly to the laws of space-time. We can't escape the "action/reaction" existence of space time.
    Arminianism taken to an extreme.
    It doesn't. That's exactly my point. Man's responsibility does not negate God's election of men, or vice versa.
    It is the arminian claim that free will negates election which is a nonsequitor. In reality, however, men's resposibility not negating the concept of election affirms the calvinist argument.
     
  19. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree with everything you have said here Amy G! The only thing I would add is that the hardening is not unto certain damnation, because even those hardened could be provoked to envy and saved (Rm 11:14). So, while it is an act of judgement, I think it can be also merciful for God to harden someone. Paul said, "For God has bound all men over to disobedience (hardened them) so that he may have mercy on them all." :thumbsup:
     
  20. David Michael Harris

    David Michael Harris Active Member

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    Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.
    Book of Psalms 115:3 ESV

    Our job is to preach the Gospel and adhere to the Christian teachings of the NT.
     
    #60 David Michael Harris, Dec 29, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2009
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