Did God ever prevent people from believing the gospel?

Hardening is not difficult to understand, we see it all the time. For instance, when you show someone to be in error, oftentimes a person will get angry. You have offended their pride. No one likes or enjoys being corrected, but some people are humble enough to admit when they are wrong, while others become obstinate and stubborn. Deep down they know they are in error, but they are not going to admit it. With folks like this, if you persist, they will become even angrier and resolve to be more obstinate.

When I say this, I am not pointing fingers at anybody. I do not like to be shown wrong myself, and I am not good at admitting it.

Pharaoh was hard for several reasons. The Egyptians believed the Pharaohs to be decendents of the gods. This would tend to make a person very proud. He was also used to giving orders, not taking them. And we can see this in his first response to Moses.

Exo 5:2 And Pharaoh said, Who is the LORD, that I should obey his voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, neither will I let Israel go.

At this point Moses and Aaron were only asking that the Israelites be allowed to have three days off to go into the wilderness and hold a feast to the Lord. Pharaoh did not want to lose three days labor and so refused. But you can also see how clever Pharaoh believed himself to be, he commanded that the straw that was provided to make bricks be taken away to make the Israelites labor more difficult. He was going to show Moses and Aaron a lesson for daring to give him a command from God. He also knew this would turn the people against Moses. Very clever.

Exo 5:6 And Pharaoh commanded the same day the taskmasters of the people, and their officers, saying,
7 Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.

So, we see Pharaoh hardening his heart from the beginning. Moses and Aaron had showed no signs to Pharaoh, there had been no plagues yet. He was already a very proud and obstinate man before Moses ever approached him.

And this is why I believe God chose Pharaoh personally to show his wrath. Pharaoh was incredibly proud and stubborn. I can't imagine any man who could see miracles of God with his own eyes and still resist and disobey God, but Pharaoh did. God in his foreknowledge could see how stubborn and rebellious Pharaoh would be, and so raised him up to become king. He did not make Pharaoh evil, Pharaoh was evil of his own free will, but God used Pharaoh's wickedness to demonstrate his power and make his name known to the world.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Calvinists love this verse, but overlook two important words. First it says God is longsuffering. God is very patient with a sinner and gives him every opportunity to repent. But this verse also says these persons are "fitted to destruction". It is for just reason God destroys these persons. God does not simply choose to destroy men for his pleasure. No, he justly condemns men who by their own free will and actions choose wickedness over righteousness.

He did not make Pharaoh hard in that he caused Pharaoh to have a quality he did not already possess. But by confronting proud Pharaoh, he knew Pharaoh would harden his own heart and become increasingly obstinate.

The root of hardening is pride.

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:

 

I am intrigued by the entire subject of hardening and blinding in the scriptures. And I admit that I wish I understood it better than I do.

In Exodus, we have numerous instances where God hardened Pharoah's heart, and where Pharoah hardened his own heart.

Here's an intriguing passage. John 12:40, where John quotes Isaiah 6:10:

Intriguing, because John speaks of the same Jews in 12:37, saying they would not believe on Jesus. Then in v 40 he says they cannot believe. Further, John quotes Isaiah 6, where God tells Isaiah (paraphrasing), you preach to them but I'm going to blind their eyes and deaden their hearts so they can't understand, because if they could understand, they'd repent. In other words, the apparent effect of Isaiah's preaching was to blind and harden them.

Now, what we have then throughout scripture is that God, at some point, makes it impossible for some to be saved. Sometimes it appears that God simply quits wooing them; at other times, he actively turns their hearts to stone.

Surely, no one here will argue that God will refuse to save someone who desires salvation. No one can plead to God, "I wanted to be saved, but you wouldn't let me." But it certainly seems that God gives him up, so that not only can he not turn, but can't want to.

And it seems to me that once God has taken that step, he no longer desires repentance and faith from that person. In other words, he is willing that he perish, and not willing that he come to repentance.

I am also intrigued by Ezekiel 36:26, where God speaks of the Jews:

God is speaking to Jews, of course, but here he is working a spiritual miracle on their hearts. He will change their hearts and move them to obedience in what appears to be a sovereign, unilateral act. So then, why does he give a heart of flesh to this group, but a heart of stone to another? Both are undeserving, and both in rebellion. Why will he move the Jews to obedience, but not those whom he has given up to reprobation? Why will he move to ensure the obedience of the Jews, but for another group has moved to make it impossible for them to obey?

My answer to all those questions is, I don't know. But it still leaves unanswered the question of why God deals differently with similarly rebellious and undeserving groups of people. I don't know that, either.

 

We are close, but I will have to do more study on this. Not saying you are wrong, only that I need to study this more.

My problem with this concept it that it almost seems to be Calvinism. If God hardens a man so that he cannot repent, then God in effect is willing this man should perish, he is choosing some men to perish. I don't know if I can go along with that. Let me post a verse that shows my viewpoint.

Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

In this verse, God says it is the devil that comes and takes the word out of their hearts lest they should believe and be saved. So, it is the devil who is responsible for this hardening, not God.

And consider evil king Ahab in 1 Kings 22. He wanted to go to war against the Syrians, and asked if king Jehoshaphat would join him. Jehoshaphat agreed, but wanted to inquire of the Lord first.

1 Kings 22:5 And Jehoshaphat said unto the king of Israel, Inquire, I pray thee, at the word of the LORD to day.
6 Then the king of Israel gathered the prophets together, about four hundred men, and said unto them, Shall I go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall I forbear? And they said, Go up; for the Lord shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
7 And Jehoshaphat said, Is there not here a prophet of the LORD besides, that we might inquire of him?
8 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, There is yet one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may inquire of the LORD: but I hate him; for he doth not prophesy good concerning me, but evil. And Jehoshaphat said, Let not the king say so.

These four hundred prophets of king Ahab were false prophets. They were "yes men" who always told the king what he desired to hear. It seems that Jehoshaphat discerned this and asked if there were not one more prophet to inquire of. There was, Micaiah, but notice that king Ahab hated him because he always prophesied evil against Ahab.

Now that is important, it shows Ahab was not really interested in hearing the truth to begin with. He only sought out those that he knew would agree with him.

But on with the story, Micaiah was brought to the king, but the other prophets exhorted him to give a good prophesy to Ahab, that he would be victorious in battle. Now, the story almost gets comical here, because Micaiah told Ahab he would be successful. But when he did, Ahab did not believe him.

1 Kings 22:15 So he came to the king. And the king said unto him, Micaiah, shall we go against Ramothgilead to battle, or shall we forbear? And he answered him, Go, and prosper: for the LORD shall deliver it into the hand of the king.
16 And the king said unto him, How many times shall I adjure thee that thou tell me nothing but that which is true in the name of the LORD?

I almost laugh when I read this. Micaiah told Ahab exactly what he wanted to hear, and when he did Ahab did not believe him. This shows that down deep in his heart Ahab knew he was doing wrong and knew he would not be successful. Then he tells Micaiah to tell him the truth.

1 Kings 22:17 And he said, I saw all Israel scattered upon the hills, as sheep that have not a shepherd: and the LORD said, These have no master: let them return every man to his house in peace.
18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?

Now Micaiah tells Ahab the truth that he shall be defeated and Ahab turns to Jehoshaphat and says, "See, I told you he would prophesy against me!"

But now, look what was taking place in heaven concerning these four hundred false prophets and Micaiah the true prophet. This is very interesting.

1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
24 But Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah went near, and smote Micaiah on the cheek, and said, Which way went the Spirit of the LORD from me to speak unto thee?
25 And Micaiah said, Behold, thou shalt see in that day, when thou shalt go into an inner chamber to hide thyself.
26 And the king of Israel said, Take Micaiah, and carry him back unto Amon the governor of the city, and to Joash the king's son;
27 And say, Thus saith the king, Put this fellow in the prison, and feed him with bread of affliction and with water of affliction, until I come in peace.
28 And Micaiah said, If thou return at all in peace, the LORD hath not spoken by me. And he said, Hearken, O people, every one of you.

Micaiah tells Ahab that the Lord sent a lying spirit to speak through the four hundred false prophets to persuade Ahab to go up against the Syrians and fall in defeat. But you must remember that Micaiah had also told Ahab that he would fall.

Now, the most amazing thing of all is that after Micaiah tells Ahab the truth, he STILL goes up against the Syrians and is wounded and dies in battle.

1 Kings 22:29 So the king of Israel and Jehoshaphat the king of Judah went up to Ramothgilead.
30 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, I will disguise myself, and enter into the battle; but put thou on thy robes. And the king of Israel disguised himself, and went into the battle.
31 But the king of Syria commanded his thirty and two captains that had rule over his chariots, saying, Fight neither with small nor great, save only with the king of Israel.
32 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots saw Jehoshaphat, that they said, Surely it is the king of Israel. And they turned aside to fight against him: and Jehoshaphat cried out.
33 And it came to pass, when the captains of the chariots perceived that it was not the king of Israel, that they turned back from pursuing him.
34 And a certain man drew a bow at a venture, and smote the king of Israel between the joints of the harness: wherefore he said unto the driver of his chariot, Turn thine hand, and carry me out of the host; for I am wounded.
35 And the battle increased that day: and the king was stayed up in his chariot against the Syrians, and died at even: and the blood ran out of the wound into the midst of the chariot.

Now, here is where we enter this discussion we are having. It is true that God allowed a lying spirit to speak through Ahab's false prophets. But at the same time, God clearly told Ahab the truth through Micaiah, although at the first inquiry Micaiah also lied.

So God was allowing Ahab to hear what he wanted to hear. When Luke 8:12 says that the devil takes away the word out of their hearts it is true. God will allow the devil to deceive this person. But God always gives the person the truth necessary to believe. The person of their own free will and desires chooses to be led away by the deception of the devil.

And this is shown in 2 Thessalonians.

2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

We see in verse 11 that these wicked people refuse and have no love for truth. And for this cause God sends a strong delusion, he allows Satan to take the words out of their hearts. And verse 12 explains why he does this, because they did not believe the truth he gave them, but loved and had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So never does God just harden a man. He always gives every man the truth, and every man could believe. But when men hate the truth and will not receive it, then God allows the devil to come and take away the word that was sown in their hearts.

 

And that is Pelagianism. You sound just like Charles Finney there.

 

It was clearly God who prevented Jonah from abandoning the mission God had placed before him. God even prepared a great fish to swallow him and give him a taste of death. God caused the great fish to spit Jonah up on shore, and it was God who redirected Jonah to minister to the Ninevites. Clearly God, according to scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I do not understand what this has to do with belief. The question is whether God prevents people from believing the gospel. Jonah was disobedient, but he was always a believer.

 

This thread got me thinking about God's purpose of hardening the Jews. I think I got a lot more out of it than I ever have. I started at Isaiah 4-6, the read Mathew 13, then Romans 8:26-11.

I dont think I can explain this, hah, but it makes a lot of sense when you prayerfully consider it line by line.

I still hold that God guides and directs all things after His will and that His calling and gifts are irrevocable.

Romans 11:36 "For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.

From Him- His will... destiny
Through Him- His power.. sovereignty..providence
to Him- for His glory

 

Wrong, clearly you have never picked up a dictionary. I never read Finney, so I cannot comment on that, but there is more to pelagianism than one aspect...so on that count you are also dead wrong.

 

I didn't say that the totality of your soteriological beliefs are Pelagian -- but that one aspect clearly is.

 

wow. that is a really good point

 

From Man's Need Of Salvation : Total Depravity And Man's Inability by Brian Schwertley :

The intimate conviction that man can be reponsible for nothing which is not in their power, led, in the first place, to the Pelagian doctrine of the freedom of the will.

 

Well, I believe in the virgin birth along with Roman Catholics...your point?

 

How about answering Skandelon's question? Why would God need to harden and blind people against the gospel who are born hardened and blind against the gospel?

 

...not hardened and blind... DEAD! Why does a corpse need to be blind? What kind of light can seep through the blindfold on a corpse?

 

He wouldn't . They are already dead to spiritual matters. They are already being hardened by their own nature. I dont know how, but maybe as I have said before God's hardening was not saving them by entering their minds, hearts, and wills and changing them in the mysterious work of the Spirit that teaches the person the message that in and of themselves they cannot understand because they are spiritually discerned. But to those He didnt harden He gave to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, and the hardened, as I said, it was just parable jibberish. God can also guide their hard hearts (by nature) to do His will. I think the most confusing part of God's sovereignty is how He moved Judas without sinning, tempting, and so forth.

It seems like the OP question assumes that God had to go on a hot pursuit to stop these blind sinner from freely coming and loving on Him, which I think misses the point. My question would be How does God harden hearts?

There is a lot to account for and I think going verse by verse in the chapters and really considering each statement is necessary and to be honest I dont know if I have the energy to do that on here.

 

Does "dead" = a corpse?
What is the meaning of "dead" in the Bible?

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

By your definition the Ephesians were dead corpses before Paul even wrote to them.