Did God have a contract with Satan?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by xdisciplex, Jun 1, 2006.

  1. xdisciplex

    xdisciplex
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    Somebody in my house meeting meant that he thinks when Satan gained the authority over the world and over mankind God asked Satan what he wanted to give it back and Satan said something which he thought God could never fulfill: A perfect sacrifice.

    I do not believe this at all. God did not try to pay a price to Satan. It was all about God's righteousness and not about Satan. I think the thought that God had to pay a price to Satan is ridiculous.

    Anyway, I don't understand this verse here. If Satan had really known that Jesus would defeat him on the cross he would never have killed him, but then why does Peter try to keep Jesus from completing his mission and Jesus even rebukes him calling him Satan? This sounds as if Satan knew that Jesus had to die. Did Satan not have demons all around which heard what Jesus said that he has to die? Why did Satan not get it? Why didn't he understand that this would be his defeat? Or did he know it? But if he knew it he would not have killed him.

    Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
    Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
     
  2. J. Jump

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    Satan was at work 1,000s of years before Christ was even on the earth trying to destroy mankind before Christ ever got to the earth. Satan tried to get Christ to disqualify Himself during the 40-day temptation. Although I have not studied it out I don't think Satan knew Christ was going to rise again, so he thought he had won at the crucifixion. But after three days Christ did rise again and now sits at the right hand of the Father where He is untouchable.


    However, Satan can still disqualify Christians from ruling and reigning with Christ, so that's what he is about now.

    Hope that helps.
     
  3. xdisciplex

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    But why does Jesus call Peter Satan and why does Peter try to stop Jesus? Does this mean that Peter was not inspired to do this by Satan and Jesus using the term Satan rather means that Peter was trying to go against God's plan without Satan himself being involved? How can this be explained?
     
  4. genesis12

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    No, God did not have a contract with satan. Jesus was not referring to Peter as satan ~~ he was referring to the thought process involved. Standing in the presence of the Savior, Peter does not respond spiritually. He responds from the flesh, the sinful, the worldly nature, not from the new nature imparted to him as a follower of Christ. We Christians all do that, every day. We look to ourselves and others for answers, rather than to the Author and Finisher of our faith. Jesus rightfully calls that fact to Peter's attention. :Fish:
     
  5. J. Jump

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    As genesis 12 said it was Peter walking in the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit. And while Peter was not Satan nor was he indwelt by Satan nor a demon, but it might as well of been Satan, because he was trying to carry out Satan's plan of defeating Christ.

    And there was no contract. God established Satan as the ruler over this earth long before man was even created. And God will take away his rulership one day and give it to His Son!

    God is the One and Only One that raises leaders up and takes them out.
     
  6. xdisciplex

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    But God gave dominion to Adam and Eve which lost it to Satan.:confused:

    And why did Satan not become suspicious when Jesus said he has to do it? Did he not listen to everything Jesus said?
     
  7. DHK

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    The OP:
    There are too many false premises here to even start with.
    First, Satan never gained authority over the world. God is sovereign. He is the Creator, ruler, soereign sustainer of this universe which includes this ruler. Satan cannot do one single thing (not even lift his finger [so to speak]) without the permission of God. God is the ruler of this world. He is all sovereign, not Satan.
    Having said that, Satan is the god of this world, and God has allowed him to have some control (not total control) over the affairs of this world.

    Secondly, God never asked Satan what he wanted. Satan was cast out of heaven. It is Satan that continues to rebel against God. God is never at the mercy of Satan, never. God is omnipotent, and could destroy Satan at any time, if that is his will. Ultimately he will (Rev.20:10).

    The ideas you have presented are similar to those that some on the fringes of the Word of Faith movement believe, such as Benny Hinn. He believes that Christ went to Hell for three days (before his resurrection), and bargained with Satan. He came to the conclusion that in the bargain it was Satan that made an atonement for our sins and not Christ. This is complete blasphemy and heresy.

    But then if you go looking for heresy, I am sure you will find it. It is just better to study your Bible instead.
    DHK
     
  8. xdisciplex

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    But I thought that Satan rules this planet. The bible says Satan is the God of this world, this looks like this is his territory and God needs our prayers to be set free to work on this world. This is what I always heard, that God cannot do on this planet whatever he wants because God also sticks to the rules.
     
  9. DHK

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    Job 1:6-9 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

    Read the rest of the story of Job, or at least the first chapter. Notice that Satan cannot do anything to Job except by permission of God. Satan needs the permission of God to do as he will. This is particularly true of believers. A believer is protected by Christ, and under the protection of his blood. We have the armor of God (Eph.6:11-18), to protect us. We, through the power of the Holy Spirit, are able to actively "resist the devil, and he will flee from us."
    Through Christ, Satan is a conquered foe. He was conquered at the cross.
    For the believer there is victory in Jesus.

    Satan may be the god of this world, but if you are a believer in Christ, you are not of this world though you be in this world.
    DHK
     
  10. xdisciplex

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    But what if God wants to save a person? I was told that in order to be able to work he first needs someone to pray for the person to set God free to do something.
     
  11. Marcia

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    God does not need anyone to set him "free." God is free to do whatever he chooses to do. It sounds from what you say on this thread that you have heard Word Faith teachings, which teach that God's hands were tied when Satan "took over." Satan never took over -- he was given access through sin to tempt and deceive man, but only within the limits God sets for him.

    Satan is the ruler of this age because man is in sin and wants to go against God, which is where Satan is. Satan is not in charge and does not have the ability to keep God from saving anyone.

    We should pray for lost people, but that is not because that "frees" God up to save someone! God saves whomever he wants to save whenever he wants to do so.

    The teaching that God is limited by Satan is an unbiblical, and an almost blaphemous teaching, imo.
     
  12. DHK

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    That is Word of Faith garbage!
    Where does the Bible teach that?
    The Bible teaches that God is all-powerful. God is not man's puppet. Man cannot command God. God is not on a string to do whatever man wants. How ludicrous. Where do people get such blasphemous ideas? God is not bound by anyone's prayers. God is all-powerful. The person that tells you that might as well have god as an idol and carry him around in his pocket, so he can command it at will.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
    11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

    Isaiah 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isaiah 45:5-6 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
    6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    Psalms 8:1 Yahweh, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth, Who has set your glory above the heavens!
    Psalms 8:3-4 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, The moon and the stars, which you have ordained; What is man, that you think of him? The son of man, that you care for him? (WEB)

    God is not obligated to do anything for man, not even to save him. He does so out of his love, grace, and mercy.
    It is arrogant of man to even think that he can command God to do anything.
    DHK
     
  13. J. Jump

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    Genesis chapter 1 says let them have dominion. They never actually got that far, becuase they fell before they were able to establish rulership. There's a lot of details that could follow, but just check out the resource that I sent you and you can find it in great detail there.
     
  14. xdisciplex

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    I was told that if a sinner prays to God then God cannot even hear this person and if a sinner is supposed to get saved first of all God needs somebody else to pray for this person to enable God to save this person.
    I think this is nonsense. Many people are not christians yet but in a time of need they ask God for help and God helps and then they convert and become christians. Why should God not be able to do this? But some christians deny this and say the ONLY prayer God hears from an unsaved person is the sinner's prayer....
     
  15. BobRyan

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    #1. God is in charge - not Satan. God does not "ask Satan" what he wants. Rather God cast Lucifer and all his followers out of heaven - they are rebells against the King of the universe - not business partners with God.

    Satan has no power at all other than what God's rules - give him.

    #2. Satan's only ploy is to try to "use the system" that God created against God. In that system sin is violation of the Law of God and God demands death for violation "the second death". God is perfectly just in all cases. That is true without fail.

    However God is also merciful and has decided to offer salvation to mankind - to fallen man. God has chose to perfectly uphold the demands of His own law (to remain perfectly just) while offering mercy to mankind so God fully pays the debt demanded by HIS Law for mankind.

    #3. 2Cor 4:4 Satan DOES gain access to the World since Satan was successful in drawing mankind into rebellion with him.

    #4. Matt 4:4 Satan offers the "carrot" to Christ - offering to give up his own claims on this world if Christ will commit sin - will bow in worship to Satan. Satan then offers the "stick" to Christ in form of making mankind as disgusting as possible as mankind tries to deny its own savior!

    In the end neither tactic was successful.

    Because the evil of mankind WAS NOT the "Debt that was owed" it is stupid "Satan stuff" that was "added" to discourage our Savior. The very thing that many think is "the price demanded by the Law" (suffering the injust of wicked men against the Savior) has nothing at all to do with what the Law "demands"! Rather it was evil born of the devil - and not demanded by the Law of God "at all"!!

    Christ was already suffering the "Demands of the Law" in the Garden of Gethsemane as HE sufferred and sweat great drops of blood. Suffering the curse "without" the evil of mankind - evil not "needed" at all!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

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    #1. God "makes the rules" as we see in Job 1 and 2 - not Satan. Satan must appeal to God to get any special consideration and he only "wins" that consideration by "casting doubt upon God" so that "an experiment" such as the one is the book of Job is called for to unmask the deceiver and vindicate the decision of God in the minds of a free will universe.

    #2. Under those rules mankind lost domion of earth in Eden when mankind submitted to Satan's trickery. And in 2Cor 4:4 we find satan depicted as "the god of this world".
     
  17. xdisciplex

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    I understood none of that. Maybe also because of the "". And what is "Satan stuff"?
     
  18. BobRyan

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    God's Law does NOT state "The wages of sin is having evil men do more evil to you and torture you for a while".

    God did not need evil men to carefully torture Christ "the right amount" that is demanded by the Law to pay for sins.

    None of that is "of God" - it is all of the evil one.

    Christ was to pay the penalty the Law demanded "the second death" for us - and this He "began to do" in the Garden of Gethsemane- LONG BEFORE any "evil men" showed up.

    God was not relying upon evil to get the job done!

    Satan "added that evil" of his OWN evil choice - and that evil did nothing to "pay the debt of sin" rather it only ADDED to mankinds debt!
     
  19. xdisciplex

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    2 questions, Bob.

    So do you think that since you mentioned the second death that Jesus was separated from God? Because this is the second death.

    And what do you think would have happened if noone had come to crucify Jesus? I mean Jesus had to die somehow. :confused:
     
  20. BobRyan

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    I referenced the sweating of "great drops of blood" in Gethsemane - this is known to medical science today and indicates suffering and anguish extreme enough to result in death if prolonged. so the problem was not "dying".

    The debt paid was "measured by God" and had to be "the exact amount owed". The wicked men at the cross "were measuring nothing" and certainly had no grasp of the enormity of the sins of the world.

    Christ said "My God My God why have you forsaken me" WHILE LIVING - Christ was experiencing IN LIFE that separation that the sinner will feel as they LIVE in the lake of fire of Rev 20.
     

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