Did God have a hand in establishing the U.S.

It was not Britains' presuppositions that the colonists were subjects. They WERE subjects -- that is why the settlements were called colonies. That is why it was not yet the United States with its own army, constitution, rulers, etc. They were English subjects. The American Revolution (notice the word 'revolution') was a rebellion and war against the King. Where is the Biblical support for their rebellion?

Those are not my ideas! Those are God's teachings per Romans 13! The voting thing is a red herring. Voting is not submitting. Someone asking me to vote is not asking for submission to the gov't. Voting is a privilege and choice. You're getting off topic.

Submission to authorities means you obey the laws, you do not rebel, do not foment rebellion, nor overthrow the gov't. or rulers.

 

To the colonists, they were exercising their rights as Englishmen to insist on limited government.

From the standpoint of the colonists, the tyrannic impositions of the British parliament violated the precedent long set by the British of allowing colonial self rule. The British had allowed and even authorized colonial self government to grow up with a totally different understanding of representation--actual in the US vs virtual in the UK. When the parent (Britain) wanted to put the young adult (US) back under parental authority after allowing 130 years or so of virtual self government, the result happened.

The same misunderstanding of Romans 13 often comes up in the US. In the US, We the People ARE the powers that be.

 

If an officeholder says to vote for him/her, you are not being submissive to that holder of authority if you do not. This is not getting off-topic at all. Revolution is a change in rule or predominance; voting against an incumbent is doing that.

Some is indicated here: I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God ha remembered her iniquities. "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her (Revelation 18:4-6).

This, of course, is said in regard to "Babylon the Great," a code name for Rome or for secular empires in general. If this passage does not support revellion, at least it does decry submission-- we are not 'submitting' by paying back double for "her deeds."

 

II Samuel 23:3

The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me. He that ruleth over men [must be] just, ruling in the fear of God.

Psalm 94:20

Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with thee, which frameth mischief by a law?

Doesn't the term throne of iniquity refer to a wicked government ?

Shall we who call ourselves Christians have fellowship with a wicked government that promotes wickedness through it's laws and statutes and executive orders?

Johnathan Mayhew

Keep in mind that in the United States that everyone entering an elected government office or in the service of the United States military takes a solemn oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States..against all enemies foreign and domestic.

No oath is sworn to protect the homeland, no oath is sworn to protect anything BUT the United States constitution. Period.

Anyone that has sworn this oath, taken office and passes laws to erode or do endrounds around the constitution has placed him or herself above the law and has become the tyrant. I think Johnathan Mayhew would also agree.

And I see nothing in the word of God that says I have to be silent or teach silence or submit to anyone that has violated the rightful law and oversteped his or her legal powers of authority.

 

And you are correct Major B we the people are the powers that be! We are the government of the United States of America! AMEN!

 

Q: When did God establish a covenant with the US?

A: Never.

Q: Did God establish a covenant with any nation?

A: Yes. With Isreal.

Q: Are there any just Governments on earth?

A: No. All nations belong to the god of this world until the return of Jesus Christ to sit on His thrown in Jerusalem to rule with a rod of iron.

A: Yes & No

This is but worldly wisdom for it is man's reasoning.

Jesus said don't make any Oaths.

What about Jesus?

I'm not saying be silent or teach silence or submit to the ungodly. What I am saying is that we waste too much time and effort trying to hold on to something we cannot keep. What if a man gain the whole world and loose his own soul. How do you interpret:

Larry T.

 

If an officeholder says to vote for him/her, you are not being submissive to that holder of authority if you do not. This is not getting off-topic at all. Revolution is a change in rule or predominance; voting against an incumbent is doing that.

Some is indicated here: I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God ha remembered her iniquities. "Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her (Revelation 18:4-6).

This, of course, is said in regard to "Babylon the Great," a code name for Rome or for secular empires in general. If this passage does not support revellion, at least it does decry submission-- we are not 'submitting' by paying back double for "her deeds." </font>[/QUOTE]I am not supposed to be obedient to a person but to the laws of the land. So if the president-- whoever it is -- asks for my vote, not voting for him is not being in rebellion against the government. I can't believe you are trying to make this argument.

Your quote does not support rebellion against the governing authorities at all! This is about God's final judgment on Babylon, which could be various things according to who is interpreting (the world system usually). Rom 13, nor any passage, gives us the right to rebel if we don't like the gov't.

 

That is not what you posted earlier. You specifically said we are to be in submission to the king or the president.

Why can't you?

If you know your grammar, what person is this command in? First (I, we), second, (you), or third (they)? And Babylong is an authoritarian empire; either Rome specifically, or evil empires generally.

 

That is not what you posted earlier. You specifically said we are to be in submission to the king or the president.
</font>[/QUOTE]Submission to the king or president as the offical leaders/rulers, yes. I assumed you understood what I meant. If George Bush tells me to smoke a cigarette, that is not what I am talking about and I assumed you understood that. Guess one should never assume, huh? Do you not understood the prinicple of submission to the gov't? I went on to explain in another post -- obeying the laws and not rebelling.

Did you read all of Rev 18? It's a vision and a prophecy. Notice in v. 21 the angel destroys Babylon. This has nothing to do with God telling us to rebel and fight against our government. I repeat, this is a vision of God destroying Babylon. Rom 13 commands us to be in submission to the ruling authorities. YOu have not shown any Biblical support against that.

 

God gave us the ability to found and create the US. This ain't OT Israel (which doesn't exist anymore). There's no scriptural support for the idea that God created the US. We created the US. God gave us the ability to do it. The colonists initially came here to found a settlement where they could practice their religion without duress from the Crown. 150 years later, the country was founded over the issue of taxation without representation.

 

No, you didn't mention anything about cigarettes. But apparently you would rebel against him, as a metonomy for government authority, if he did issue such an edict.

That's a principle I certainly follow.

Since the Bible does not condemn slavery, I presume you would have assisted a cruel slave owner to reclaim his 'property' under the Fugitve Slave Law. In colonial times, I presume if you were found guilty of nagging at your husband, you would 'submit' the common punishment, being ducked in water over your head in the ducking stool.

Then how and when, have you, are you, or will you-- "pay her back double for her deeds?" Or do you intend to defy this command?

 

This is going to go for 20 pages because I don't think you are getting my point. I said earlier, in one of my many posts, that I do not think it is okay to "submit" if if we are required to do something immoral or against God.

The Bible does not endorse slavery, either. Also, slavery then was usually people selling themselves as bondservants in order to pay off debts; it was not the slavery the U.S. had. If I had thought it immoral to help someone find their slave under the Fugitive Slave Law, I would not have helped them. Didn't I say at least twice already that submitting to the gov't does not mean you are to do immoral acts????

As far as the ducking issue, that is not moral, either. What I would have thought then, I don't know, since I didn't live then. If you had asked me this question a few years ago, I would have given it more thought because I used to believe in reincarnation and would probably have wondered if I had really lived then.

I think the word "submitting" is throwing you.

Why don't you tell us, since you are the one that is telling us that we are being commanded by God to do this? I do not believe it is as you say -- this is a vision/prophecy of the endtimes; it does not apply now and has nothing to do with overthrowing a government Rom 13 tells us to live lawfully under. You need to make a Biblical case that this passage is a command for us today and show why it overrides Rom 13.

 

God gave us the ability to found and create the US. This ain't OT Israel (which doesn't exist anymore). There's no scriptural support for the idea that God created the US. We created the US. God gave us the ability to do it. The colonists initially came here to found a settlement where they could practice their religion without duress from the Crown. 150 years later, the country was founded over the issue of taxation without representation. </font>[/QUOTE]Since when did the OT cease to exist? God did give man the ability of government but the church is not to entangle itself with the world. And whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
LT

 

Hmm, sounds like fun!

The Bible does not endorse slavery nor does it oppose slavery. It does say, though, that slaves/servants must obey their worldly masters. You ask me to show you scripture that says we may rebel against unjust governments, and I allow there is no such biblical condonining of that, though there might some indications. NOW, you show me where you would have the authority to not aid a slaveowner to get his slave back under the Fugitive Slave Law, considering what the Bible says, and does not say, about slavery.

Reincarnation? Sounds like you've come a long way, baby.

It was accompanied by 'visions,' but this is a command. If it is not, then neither is the 'suggestion' to not worship the antiChrist or his statue (Revelation 14:9,10), which also was accompanied by visions.

 

Alcott said

You need to read the previous verses. 18:4 says to the saints to come out of babylon because God is about to judge her for her sins - v.5 Then in v.6 God proclaims the judgement. This is not a command for the saints for the saints are to leave babylon and not execute judgement.

 

Just where is the second person plural changed?

 

This is utter destruction of Babylon by God.

 

This is second person-- a command. Are you, or will you, obey this command, or do/will you defy it?

 

This is second person-- a command. Are you, or will you, obey this command, or do/will you defy it? </font>[/QUOTE]I have no need to obey this command. It isn't addressed to me as I pointed out. I have already come out of Babylon and will let God avenge me on her.

 

Revelation 18:4-5 -- I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues; for her sins have piled up as high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. ...

v.6 .. Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

Where do you get your silly reasoning that the "voice from "heaven"'s command to "come out of her" applies to you-- at least you said you have 'come out of Babylon,' and yet that same voice continuing here does not apply? Make up your mind-- are you being addressed by this voice, or not?