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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Nov 28, 2011.
was it something that he direct caused, or did He allow it to com to pass?
Yes, and yes.
No. God became a man and gave Himself freely. No one took His life, He laid it down Himself.
17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”
God's will, "for he so loved the world", Jesus' choice to do the Fathres will.
Yes, Jesus willingly gave up his life. But also, "It was the will of the Lord to crush Him" (Is. 53). Humans sinfully inflicted the wounds that led to his death, God the Father did the wrath-pouring prior to Jesus' death. Jesus himself apparently chose the exact moment of death when he commended his spirit into the Father's hands.
Oh, my! Amy and I are agreeing! :applause:
It was the Father's will for the Son to die on the cross, but it was the Son who actually laid down His life.
:laugh: I ain't all bad. :saint:
Something needs to be said about the need to properly frame the actions of the Cross in light of the economic Trinity.
sorry about the typing. My keyboard messing up /sticky keys/others not printing to screen!
God the father had ordained it to come to pass though, correct?
he did this directly Himself, MUST come to pass as He determined it beforehand/period?
He gave His life, they did not take it.
When Jesus was being arrested Peter drew his sword and cut the ear off of the High Preist. To which Jesus said
Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Jesus went willingly to the cross, but this verse makes it obvious that God would have rescued Him if Jesus had just asked.
I don't know about you people, but I would rather give up my own life than to watch my son tortured and killed.
Noone knows the mind of God. Yes, it is obvious that he allowed the death of Jesus, but to say that He caused the death of His son is beyond human comprehension.
Here's something else to show that Jesus gave His life freely.
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.
2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.
3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
They fell backwards, and I can not find anywhere in this passage they were pushed down by anyone there. God was showing them Who was in charge. If God wanted to, they would not have let them harm one hair of His precious body.
This question addresses the holiness of God in that some seem to believe that if they can biblically show that God actively brought about the crucifixion (an obviously great injustice) that somehow they have proven God has also actively brought about all evil (such as the molestation of children etc) in like manner.
The fault of this logic is two fold:
1) Proof that God does X doesn't prove that God does Y. In other words, proof that God has taken an active role is ensuring the crucifixion of Himself for the redemption of mankind in no way proves that God takes an active role in ensuring all evil in like manner.
2) Scripture is clear to show that the active role God does play in the crucifixion is not in violation of man's will. He uses judicial hardening to ensure the crucifixion, which if examined can be shown not to be a violation of human will or in any way a mark on His holy character. Judicial hardening is much like when a cop hides his presence from speeders to ensure they keep speeding when they pass. The cop doesn't need to make them want to speed, he simply hides the truth of his presence to ensure they will do exactly what they already want to do. That is all God does in the crucifixion. He simply hides the truth from Israel for a time so as to ensure they will not believe and will crucify Christ. After he is raised up he then draws all men to himself by sending the gospel to all people.
I agree with point #1
#2. Is there a time frame in which this judicial hardening of Israel took place? was it the 33 years of Jesus' life, or simply the 3 years of his public ministry...even then, would there not have been some Israelites who died in unbelief who might have otherwise believed, except for this special hardening?
But what is being argued against (in denying this) is (and not properly) if "they" took His life. Instead the OP is "Did GOD Kill His Son Upon the Tree?"
It's as if one is arguing "no way could God do that because God did it Himself!!!"
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.
10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.
11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.
8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
11 Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.
12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts.
13 And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
Here shows that Israel was in the midst of this judical hardeming. They were doing the offering with their worst and not best. They polluted the altar with these offerings. God was nor pleased, and He cut them off.
Well, God allowed it to happen yes. I can read nowhere where He put their desire to kill Jesus in their heart. They were doing the will of satan, Jesus, the will of the Father; to lay his life down for ungoldy mankind.
Acts 2:23 & Acts 4:28
Scripture is not real clear on the matter of the exact time, but we do see in scripture two types of hardening, their characteristics and divine purposes:
1. Self-Hardening of the heart goes beyond the tragic obtuseness of our inherited condition in the Fall of man. Working on the fertile soul of our innately immoral hearts, the act of sinning hardens the heart into a stubborn rebellion against all that is good. So, people may harden their own hearts, in sinful rebellion, in bitterness, or in sheer self-will. (Ex. 9:34-35; 2 Chron. 36:13; Zech. 7:12; Dan. 5:20; Eph. 4:18; Heb. 3:12-15)
This type of self-hardening is most clearly seen in Zech. 7:11-13:
"Your ancestors would not listen to this message. They turned stubbornly away and put their fingers in their ears to keep from hearing. They made their hearts as hard as stone, so they could not hear the law or the messages that the LORD Almighty had sent them by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. That is why the LORD Almighty was so angry with them. ‘Since they refused to listen when I called to them, I would not listen when they called to me,’ says the LORD Almighty.”
2. Judicial Hardening -- In a few instances such as Pharaoh and the Egyptians (Ex. 7:3; 9:12), Sihon, king of Heshbon (Deut. 2:30), and the Hivites living in Gibeon (John 11:19-20), it is said that God hardened their hearts. Apparently these people were so irremediable in their rebellion against God that God entered into the hardening process so that he could accomplish his purposes in spite of, and yet in and through, that hardenness. It is God's prerogative, as God, to do this (Rom. 9:18-21). That they are morally responsible for their condition is a theological given, and we are warned not to harden our hearts as they did, a command that would make no sense if hardening were simply God's act (1 Sam. 6:6).
Israel's hardening as a nation was an act of self-hardening followed by God’s act of judicial hardening as clearly portrayed in the scripture (Matt. 23:37; Rom. 10-11).
God tells Isaiah that Israel, with its calloused heart, will reject him as God's messenger when he goes to them (Isa. 6:9-10). The event was taken as prophetic by Jesus (Matt. 13:14-15) and Paul (Acts 28:25-27) as referring to Israel's rejection of Jesus as God's Messiah. For Paul, Israel's hardening paved the way to a ministry of ingrafting the Gentiles (Rom. 10-11; Acts 28:28) and was not intended by God to be final, but only until the fullness of the Gentile’s ingrafting was accomplished.
Only the Word of God has the power to cut or pierce a hardened heart (Heb. 4:12) and he has given that word through his Son, the Apostles, the scriptures and by his Spirit all of which can be resisted and ignored as seen throughout the Bible as the hardenness and callousness of the heart only grows thicker with each act of rebellion.
According to scripture only those in a hardened state are unable to see, hear, understand and believe (Acts 28:26-28: John 12:39-40). Calvinism’s doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that everyone is essentially born in this condition due to the Fall of Man. The doctrine of Original Sin can clearly be seen in the scripture, but the Calvinistic system takes this foundational truth one step further by teaching that after the Fall God removed man’s capacity to willingly respond to the call of the gospel, yet God, according to Calvinism, still holds men responsible for that response. I can no longer see this as being a biblical position.