Did God Need Mary’s Permission?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by mojoala, Jul 22, 2006.

  1. mojoala

    mojoala
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    Here is some dialog on another board:

     
  2. genesis12

    genesis12
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    Only the mind of man could dream up such a question. The question itself is faulty on its face.
     
  3. Marcia

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    I think God chose Mary because he knew she was willing to serve God in whatever he asked of her. God knows our minds and what we are thinking. He would not have chosen someone who would not have been willing.
     
  4. menageriekeeper

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    What Marcia said. :thumbs:
     
  5. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    1. Did God choose Mary because of his foreknowledge of her inate goodness and that she would willingly say ok?

    2. Does this not possibly lead to the worship of Mary instead of giving all the Glory to God for his sovereign choice?

    3. I don't believe God needs Mary's, or anybody elses, permission to do anything. I affirm the Westminster Confession of Faith when it says:

    Link

    Joseph Botwinick
     
    #5 Joseph_Botwinick, Jul 23, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2006
  6. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Hi, Joseph,
    I didn't say he chose her for her "innate goodness." I said he chose her because he knew she was willing and was apparently the woman God wanted to be the mother of Jesus.

    I agree God doesn't need permission for anything but I also do not think he would have chosen a woman who not have been willing to serve God or who did know God. For example, Jezebel. I cannot see God choosing someone like her to be the mother of Jesus.
     
  7. Joseph_Botwinick

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    It is interesting how God was willing to choose those who were hostile to his Church and mission ...people like Paul, to carry out his purpose. God changed his heart. So yes, I agree that God does not force those he chooses to do his will. But when God chooses you, he will change your will to conform to his will by his grace. By stating that God chose Mary because she was willing (thereby making it a choice that she made and God simply complied with...showing some level of nobility that was of her own), you are stating that God chose her because of her inate goodness.

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Joseph, I do not equate willingness with "innate goodness." They are not the same terms and do not mean the same thing.

    I don't think God was searching, trying to find someone who was willing, but he knew she would be willing when she was told what would happen. This does not mean she was innately good at all!
     
  9. mojoala

    mojoala
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    from another post:

     
  10. Joseph_Botwinick

    Joseph_Botwinick
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    Marcia,

    Would you say that being willing to believe is something good...and where did that goodness come from? Was Mary good or did God save her and make her capable of goodness?

    Joseph Botwinick
     
  11. Marcia

    Marcia
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    The Bible doesn't say. It does have the angel greeting her as "favored one."
    This is all the text tells us.
     
  12. mojoala

    mojoala
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    The Greek does not say 'Favored One'.

    The Greek word "kecharitomene" is translated (in the Vulgate) "gratia plena" which is "full of grace." This is a slight mistranslation, as it doesn't quite capture all of the nuances of the Greek. But "favored one" is worse as instead of trying to capture these nuances, it ignores them altogether.

    Kacharitomene is the perfect passive participle of Charitoo meaning "to grace." A less poetic, but more accurate translation of it would be,"Having-Been-Graced-One." Someone has suggested that this is an accurate translation, "Full of grace that you have received." Replacing "grace" with "favor" would only be appropriate if it were to be translated something like "Completely Favored One." In which case one must ask: what did Mary do to earn this favor? The response would, of course, be: "Nothing. We cannot earn God's favor". This favor must therefore be given by the GRACE of God. Indeed, this "favor" IS the grace of God which is revealed by the meaning of the word "charitoo."



    G5487
    χαριτόω
    charitoō
    khar-ee-to'-o
    From G5485; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.

    G5485
    χάρις
    charis
    khar'-ece
    From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

    G5463
    χαίρω
    chairō
    khah'ee-ro
    A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.

    Hence the proper translation should be "Full Of Grace"
     
  13. Marcia

    Marcia
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    Another view on "full of grace."

    NET Bible commentary
     

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