Did God ordain the Fall, Or Permit It To Happen?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Nov 3, 2011.

  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    was He active in it, or permissive?
     
  2. convicted1

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    Oh no, not again!!!


    Luke, where are you at? Luke??? Hey Brother Luke??? Luke?????

    :laugh::laugh::laugh::wavey:
     
  3. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    To be honest with you, this is an issue I still not 'firm" on...

    As still trying to see how God can directly ordain/determined ALL things, yet no cause of Sin?
     
  4. freeatlast

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    Yes he was.
     
  5. 12strings

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    from FAL:
    I really like Fal's answer! :laugh:


    Here's my 2 cents:

    I think that if you believe in an omnipotent, omniscient God, you have to say AT THE VERY LEAST that God knew the fall would happen, and went ahead and created the universe in which the fall would happen instead of creating some other universe in which no person ever sinned. We may never know the purpose of this, but I don't see how anyone can agree with at least this much. If so, I'd be glad to hear alternative explanations.
     
  6. JesusFan

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    This would be the BEST creation God could have done, as He chose to have all things that happened be worked out to His praise and glory!
     
  7. freeatlast

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    I think God can only do His best. I don't think that He has a second best.
     
  8. webdog

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    Didn't Jesus say a house divided cannot stand? If God can have no part of sin how is it not contradictory to state He desired / ordained the fall?
     
  9. psalms109:31

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    Ezekiel 28
    11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
    “‘You were the seal of perfection,
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden,
    the garden of God;
    every precious stone adorned you:
    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
    topaz, onyx and jasper,
    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
    Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
    on the day you were created they were prepared.
    14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
    for so I ordained you.
    You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.
    15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created
    till wickedness was found in you.


    Romans 1:24
    Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.


    Satan or lucifer went against the will of God for his life so did King Tyre, so God gave them over to their own evil desires not His desire for them as He did with Adam and Eve, God does not show favoritism.
     
    #9 psalms109:31, Nov 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2011
  10. JesusFan

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    God could have ordained what woudl happen as a direct rsult of the fall, as His answer is the Cross of Christ, and He always had that in the Plan, efore the fall ever happened!
     
  11. Iconoclast

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    1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
    2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

    3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condem
    ........................................................
     
  12. psalms109:31

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    God reveals Himself through what He has made, can God create this world without the knowledge of good and evil in it?

    One day when we shed this flesh and be made new we to will have the knowledge of good and evil, but only be good because of God.

    God did not decree our wickedness, we were given over to our own evil desire it didn't come from God, but God will and is able to use their wickness for the good of those who love Him.

    Only good can come from God who has the knowledge of good and evil, but never does evil.

    The will of God is for us to obey Him.

    He did ordain lucifer to be His guardian and he did go against what he was ordained for, it is also talking about King Tyre.
     
    #12 psalms109:31, Nov 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2011
  13. percho

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    He began the creation of man in the first Adam subject to deceit, lust, sin and death in order to beget in the human woman his seed born a man the last Adam
    to destroy sin, death and him who has the power of death through the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit of his seed who died paying the penalty for sin for all mankind, therefore reconciling man unto himself. Man through the gift of the Holy Spirit is begotten of God as a son to be born as a son of God by the resurrection unto eternal life.

    The elect of God who receive the gift of the Holy Spirit will drink of the cup and be baptized with the baptism of which the only begotten of woman Son of God, Jesus and will follow him Jesus in the regeneration at his appearing.

    This is JMHO and I would assume you would like scripture of which I believe I could produce and believe most of you could also if you would.

    The Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, slain from the foundation of the world.

    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
     
    #13 percho, Nov 4, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2011

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