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Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Aug 30, 2011.
or was it "just " a Man?
Unless you're a Docetist, the whole Person (i.e. both natures) of Christ died on the Cross.
ONLY a man could die in substitute for man
ONLY death of God atoned for Sins of mankind!
While it is true that Jesus was man and God He was not man who became God. He was always God who took on man. So it is kind of a loaded question you asked. Actually the Son and all He was died, but the Father and the Spirit did not. So I would not be comfortable to say that God died, but rather the Son died and not try and figure out what is not possible for us.
Just trying to avoid the idea that some appear to have that "just" a man died on the Cross, but God did also!
More technically, the second person of the trinity experienced real death as a real man!
God’s blood, was shed on the cross.....
“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
Let's Look at it This Way....
....You are the child of a King, and was asked to go to the people of his Kingdom and try to reconcile them and call them back to follow your father and being faithful and loyal to him!
In the end, you have no alternative but to die for the good for the people and the Kingdom. Your death was strictly for your father's rebellious people, so in one way, the blood of the king who flowed through your veins, was shed!
However, the father/king did not actually die. In fact, he went on living, and while you suffered and died for the sins of his people (creation) he turned his anger and wrath (which he had toward the people) to you; knowing quite well that it was his blood, co-mingled with yours, that was shed for these rebellious people.
It was further known, only by you and your father (the King) that if you remained without rebellion while walking among the people, that when you died, you would only be dead temporarily, because he had the power and authority to make you live again (for your strict obedience to the mission he sent you on), after your sacrificial death.
When he caused you to return to life, he also made a way for you to return to him. This return to the father signaled that the work was done, and it was now on the subjects of the Kingdom to either believe in this death and resurrection, or continue to live in rebellion and die a physical death.
There is no way that we can actually say that God died on the cross. Part of Him, may have died in principle and bloodline only, in the presence of His Son, but it was not God, who died. Had God actually died, He would never have been able to turn from the Son while He suffered and died on the cross. :tear:
Is my explanation the final word on this thought? NO! However, it is my thought. God better not be able to die, because he has claimed that HE was, is, and always will be, God. Does that sound like someone who could die?
However, it was through the blood of the Father, running through the veins of His Son, that was shed for us, and it was the Son of the Father, who actually died for us! :tear:
I hope this all made sense, because it is the best, I can do to explain why I don't believe the Father died on the cross. Selah!
Pastor Paul :type:
Yes but that was not the OP question.
If God can die He is finite and not God. He also would not be eternal, He would be separated from Himself and not omnipotent.
We cannot figure out the hypostatic union, but it is error to say God died or can die.
The Son of Man begotten by the Spirit Living God died on the cross was dead for three days and three nights and was declared to be the Son of God when God the Father by his Spirit raised him from death unto life in himself just as the Father has.
By the resurrection from the dead his soul was not left in Hades and his flesh was given the sure mercies of David in that he would return no more to corruption.
There is a reason Paul taught and stressed from the scriptures the need for the Christ to die and that it was imperative for him to be raised from the dead.
He, Jesus who was begotten by God as flesh from the virgin Mary without sin and remained without sin died to ransom man from death. After he died and God who had beget him raised him from the dead, it is in him that is found all the godhead bodily the resurrected Son of Man that has received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit. It is through his resurrection from the dead that life was given to him and through resurrection is how we will receive that same life if the Spirit on Him that raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you.
It was by resurrection from the dead that Jesus became the author of eternal salvation and also a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
The writer/s of Hebrews calls it being made perfect.
We cannot know the mechanics of this. It is just not explained in scripture. And to try to explain it fully is reaching beyond our means.
Depends upon how you define “death”!
Because while Jesus lie dead in the tomb for three days, he was actually in hell, preaching to the saints there.
Therefore, just as God can not actually “die”, neither can any of us;
Because when our bodies stop working, we are going to continue on living!
Actually everybody will....somewhere!
Some May Disagree with You...
...This is a teaching that is like oil on water. It is combustible, and it will never mix well with others. :flower:
I always thought the scripture was literal, and that Jesus used His authority Satan to take back the keys of death and hell!
Still, others will say it is not to be read and taken in a literal sense. :tear:
It is that portrait of Jesus taking back the keys of death and hell that make Him my hero (as well as Savior)! raying:
Does the soul need some kind of house in order to interact or acquire knowledge?
The most used word that precedes the word God in the word of God to describe God I believe is the word Living.
The Living God! What does that mean? The Living God.
Does it have an opposite? How exactly would you say that The Living God describes the idols that were worshiped relative to Himself?
For all to answer maybe should be a new thread question.
Did the Spirit God beget himself in the egg of a living soul, a human woman, which she carried within herself for nine months and that which was born being her firstborn son a living soul and named him Jesus or did some person of a trinity God through metamorphosis become Jesus a 100% God 100% man being so the 100% body part of the man part could die for sin?
Why was it necessary to resurrect this body part of the 100% man part of this part of Jesus?
You asked 5 questions.
I will answer 2 of them.
The Bible says.......
2 Corinthians 5:1-4
V.1 ¶ For we know that if our earthly house of [this] tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
V.2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
V.3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
V.4 For we that are in [this] tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I wouldn’t call this, “needing some kind of house in order to interact or acquire knowledge”; I have always seen it as they are “desiring” a body, in order to enjoy the pleasures of heaven more fully.
Heaven is a “touchy feely” place, where someone in Spiritual form, would be missing out on some things.
This is why.......
1 Thessalonians 4:14-15
V.14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
V.15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Those saints in heaven(those who sleep in Jesus), are really wanting their glorified bodies, therefore the Lord will allow them to receive theirs before we get ours.
Also you asked........
I think you are asking why the Lord’s bodily resurrection was so important?
Well first of all it’s a key part of the Gospel.
Plus it’s a promise to us, that one day we will be getting a gloried body.
was there EVER a time though jesus ceased being God?
if NOT, God did really physically die as a man!
Think that if we think about this, how shocking that God Himself would agree to taste death and pay the debt penaly for sin that his creation owed directly to Him!
Please be careful with your “quotations”:
I did not say...........
Even though it looks like I did.
Seems to me, the human vessel died on the cross, but not the "spirit." God suffered and died physically, but not in totality.