Did Jesus "Change?"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Nov 6, 2008.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    There appears to be some discrepancy with reality when some aver the Jesus never changes.

    Jesus was born a baby, not a god. He grew up like you and I. Do you and I change?

    He died on a cross. JW's marvel when you show them Rev 1:18 "I [Alpha and Omega - Rev 1:11] am He that liveth, and was dead." Is life to death not "change?"

    When Christ was forsaken of God -- "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me!" Mt 27:46 had He not become -- changed into -- something that was so onerous to God that God would not even look upon His own Son!!

    Let's be clear! Jesus did change. If you say it isn't so, you speak untruth! If Jesus didn't change, He couldn't save you.

    Yes, He is the "same yesterday, today and forever," but that speaks of His purpose as Savior, Mediator, and Life (Heb 13:9).

    Believe it or not, those who deny this discredit the testimony of Jesus Himself who said that made Himself to be like unto us in every respect. And as everyone know, we change, too.

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Nov 6, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 6, 2008
  2. OldRegular

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    The above statement is unBiblical, it is false, and it is heretical.

    Skypair, you have no idea of what happened in the incarnation! Your concept of the Trinity is fatally flawed. Your understanding of the God-man, Jesus Christ, is heretical. When Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary he was fully God and fully man. The Second London Copnfession of Faith puts it in a form that perhaps you can understand skypair.

    The Second London Confession of Faith [1677/1689] the best Baptist Confession of Faith ever written and the model for the Philadelphia Confession of Faith speaks of the Incarnation as follows:

    “The son of God, the second Person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father’s Glory, of one substance and equal with Him; Who made the world, Who upholdeth and governeth all things He hath made; did when the fullness of time was come take upon Himself man’s nature, with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowing her, and so was made of a woman, of the tribe of Judah, of the Seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures;so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparable joined in one Person; without conversion, composition, or confusion; which Person is very God and very Man; yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.

    The Lord Jesus in His human nature thus united to the divine, in the Person of the Son, was sanctified, annointed with the Holy Spirit above measure; having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell.”


    The Second Person of the Trinity took upon Himself the nature of man, both body and soul, but He retained all the characteristics of Deity. In the Incarnate Son there is one person but two natures. Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man. The Apostle Paul writes of the divine-human natures of Jesus Christ as follows:

    Colossians 2:9, KJV
    9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    Other Scripture that supports the above are as follows:

    Isaiah 7:14, KJV
    14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    John 1:1,2

    1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2. The same was in the beginning with God.


    John 1:14-18

    14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
    15. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
    16. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
    17. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
    18. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


    Luke 1:26-28a; 30b-35, KJV
    26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
    27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name [was] Mary.
    28a And the angel came in unto her, and said, ....
    30b ...Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
     
  3. JustChristian

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    Of course there's no question about Jesus being both entirely human and entirely divine. We simply cannot understand that just as there are many other things about God that we don't understand including the nature of the Trinity itself. I think the following familiar story reveals some of this duality.

    Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
    Luk 2:43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not [of it].
    Luk 2:44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among [their] kinsfolk and acquaintance.
    Luk 2:45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
    Luk 2:46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
    Luk 2:47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
    Luk 2:48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
    Luk 2:49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
    Luk 2:50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
    Luk 2:51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
    Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

    The last verse reinforces the claim that at least the human nature of Jesus did indeed change. Stature (height) is something that can be measured.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Maybe you should clarify this statement.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    From anti-trinitarian to outright arian?? This does not bolster a case for calling yourself an orthodox christian! :(
     
  6. Marcia

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    I was unable to reply to your last post because they closed the thread.

    You had said that one day there would be "no more Father, Son, Holy Ghost." When I asked you about this, you talked about the OT and how no one believed or knew about the Trinity then. That does not address what you said.

    You were talking about the future - there would be "no more Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." I asked for an explanation and you never gave it.
     
  7. skypair

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    You are right. That was a slip of the keystrokes. Of course, He was born God, too. He was not born God, the Father though He was one with Him.

    Everybody got that? That's a big I'm Sorry

    skypair
     
    #7 skypair, Nov 7, 2008
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  8. skypair

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    Sorry, marcia. I rely heavily on my understanding of 1Cor 15:27-28 and Rev 22:3-4 as I told you before. There is one God. For the purposes of redeeming mankind, He had to (IMO) reveal Himself in 3 Persons. Once that purpose is fulfilled, He will, according to my understanding of those 2 verses, revert to the 1 image Himself that He made man into -- soul, spirit, and body in one Form. At that same time, we will be perfect in one "bloodless" form (1Cor 15:49-50) yet children, not gods.

    The main implications of this view are not regarding trinitarianism now but reveals that we are all moving, even in this life, toward the spiritually perfect man (soul, spirit, and body) and glorification as God's children.

    Everybody got that? That's a big I'm Sorry

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  9. DHK

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    God made man in His own image, as the Scripture says, and as you agree.
    However your concept of God seems to be based on your concept of man. You see that man is a tri-partite being (body, soul, and spirit), and on that basis form your concept and theology of God. You are working in reverse. The image of God that man has may have nothing to do with him being body soul and spirit. That may simply be providential, you might say. When man was made in God's image, there was no image (physically) for man to be made in. It has nothing to do with a physical image.

    God is spirit; they that worship him must worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    God is triune and always has been.
    God chose to enter into this world as an infant born of a virgin; that was his choice. But he still remained God. Nothing changed. He was still deity, the creator of the universe.

    As the OT demonstrates, he is able to put on flesh and discard the same at will, and still remain God. Christophanies were commonplace. They cannot be denied.

    BTW, just for clarification: Do you believe there is a difference between Jesus and Christ?
     
  10. Marcia

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    Skypair, this is doctrinally incorrect. There is no biblical support for God "reverting to the 1 image Himself that he made man into." This is a Oneness view.

    There has always been a Trinity and always will be one. The nature of God is foundational to the faith and you seem to not understand the biblical nature of God.

    Neither are God the Father and the Holy Spirit ever soul, spirit, and body! God the Father and the HS are spirit.

    Jesus added humanity to his deity and he is in his glorified body now and always will be. Believers will also have a glorified body.

    You need to get some books on basic doctrines. Try Paul Little's What We Believe. His chapters on God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit should help.

    It's not a matter of saying "sorry." Saying sorry for heretical views is not the issue -- our concerns are that you need to get on the right track for your own sake. Understanding God's nature (including the eternality of the Trinity) is absolutely essential to the faith.
     
  11. OldRegular

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    skypair

    It was because people [in England] could not accept the Triune nature of God that the Unitarian-Universalist denomination was formed. As the name implies they believe in universal salvation.

    Also the Mohammedans [politically correct, Muslims] believe Christians are polytheistic.

    I don't know where you got your screwed up ideas about the nature of God but to put it bluntly they are heretical. Perhaps, as Marcia states, they are the "oneness" doctrine. I have heard about this heresy but have not read up on. Anyhow why not just believe what Scripture says about God?

    Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    Skypair, you seemed to have jumped to agree with the Apollinarianism point of view. Which has been heretical since 350 AD. or Eutychianism both are Monophysitism. Study up on these and you see why there is such an uproar.

    Apollinarianism :
    Eutychianism :
     
    #12 Thinkingstuff, Nov 7, 2008
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  13. skypair

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    I appreciate your concern, everyone.

    I really believe what Dr Rogers used to teach -- that Jesus was "all man as if He were not God, and all God as if He were not man." I am just "looking under the hood" to see how this affects our understanding of God and Jesus.

    It has been quite enlightening for me to see Christ as, from Alpha to Omega (creation to New Earth), as temporal and the Father as supratemporal (existing outside of time) and as separate Persons -- Trinity.

    Y'all say you believe in the trinity but then you attribute atemporal or supratemporal characteristics to the temporal Person of the trinity.

    Now I'm not saying that Christ didn't exist on a supratemporal plane with the Father and Spirit in eternity past and in eternity future. But His whole purpose is tied up with this TEMPORAL creation of which He is the creator and Lord! And for "the duration," He does change physically in the way that we see Him. Thomas thrust his hand into Christ's side to discover that there was no bleeding! The men on the Emaus Road met an ordinary man who turned out to be Christ Himself! The disciples saw Christ appear inside from outside of a room and taken up into heaven! Saying that Christ doesn't change in form and physical state is a denial of His particular Persona!

    skypair
     
  14. Rippon

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    "Separate persons in the Trinity"?! No,distinctions in the Godhead.

    Skypair why don't you sit this one out and read some quality Christian material?Pick up Robert Reymond's "New Systematic" or James White's treatment on the subject.Review the Chalcedon Creed of 451.You're getting deeper and deeper in a hole.
     
  15. OldRegular

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    Every thing you post appears to be a contradiction of the above statement which you say you believe. If Jesus Christ were all God which the above statement states and which numerous people on this forum have tried to get you to understand how can you say He will cease to exist.

    I repeat below my initial post on this subject. I have not studied the Chalcedon Creed lately [just took a quick look] which Rippon mentions but I believe the Baptist Confession is consistent with that creed.

    The Second London Confession of Faith [1677/1689] the best Baptist Confession of Faith ever written and the model for the Philadelphia Confession of Faith speaks of the Incarnation as follows:

    “The son of God, the second Person in the Holy Trinity, being very and eternal God, the brightness of the Father’s Glory, of one substance and equal with Him; Who made the world, Who upholdeth and governeth all things He hath made; did when the fullness of time was come take upon Himself man’s nature, with all the essential properties, and common infirmities thereof, yet without sin; being conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, the Holy Spirit coming down upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadowing her, and so was made of a woman, of the tribe of Judah, of the Seed of Abraham and David according to the Scriptures; so that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures were inseparable joined in one Person; without conversion, composition, or confusion; which Person is very God and very Man; yet one Christ, the only mediator between God and man.

    The Lord Jesus in His human nature thus united to the divine, in the Person of the Son, was sanctified, annointed with the Holy Spirit above measure; having in Him all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge; in whom it pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell.”
     
    #15 OldRegular, Nov 7, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2008
  16. Jim1999

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    quote: It was because people [in England] could not accept the Triune nature of God that the Unitarian-Universalist denomination was formed. As the name implies they believe in universal salvation
    --------------------------------------

    I think tht should read New England. All the church history texts I have attribute the foundation of the Unitarian Society as starting with an Episcopal Church in Boston, which spread to the Congregational Churches. These leaders gained control of the Congregational Society and officially formed the Unitarian Association under Ralph Waldo Emerson. Even the first Pilgrim Church went unitarian in 1801,,,,in America.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  17. Amy.G

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    Well, as NPetreley used to say before he was banned, "there's some weird, wiggy, mojo" going on in this thread. :laugh:
     
  18. Rippon

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    O thanks for that Amy! I miss NPetreley.And I do remember that line of his as well as some others.Only Rbell approaches Npet's humor.
     
  19. Amy.G

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    I miss him too. He really cracked me up! Rbell too!
     
  20. OldRegular

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    You may be correct. I had in mind a book written by Edward Henry Bickersteth, The Trinity, which was written to combat the Unitarian movement in his English neighborhood.
     

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