Did Jesus Come...

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by KenH, Jan 1, 2005.

  1. KenH

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    to die and establish the church? If so, did He do so in fulfillment of Old Testament promises to Israel?
     
  2. KenH

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    BUMP
     
  3. Archeryaddict

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    this is why Jesus came

    John 3

    1. There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
    2. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
    9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
    13. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
    14. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
    15. That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
    20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
    21. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
    22. After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
    23. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
    24. For John was not yet cast into prison.
    25. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
    26. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
    27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
    28. Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.
    29. He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
    30. He must increase, but I must decrease.
    31. He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    32. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.
    33. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.
    34. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
    35. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
    36. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
     
  4. KenH

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    So, are you saying that Jesus did come to die and establish the church in fulfillment of Old Testament promises to Israel?
     
  5. Archeryaddict

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    Jesus Came to fulfill all the Prophecies written about Him including His death, burial, and Resurrection.
    Without Jesus birth, Death, burial and resurrection there would have never been a church
    We whom choose to follow Christ and His teachings are the Church.
     
  6. Benjamin

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    John 3:17
    For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    saved G4982
    óþæù
    soôzoô
    sode'-zo
    From a primary word ó§ò soôsô (contraction for the obsolete óÜïò saos,
    “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):—heal,
    preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

    Could it be to protect men from their evil deeds also? Since …

    2 Corinthians 5:10
    For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    John 3:21
    But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
     
  7. Benjamin

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    Yep! That would be the teachings of the church.

    Just trying to get to a little more depth as to why.
     
  8. rjprince

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    Ken

    Have you stopped picking your nose? There is no right yes or no answer to this question.

    Jesus came to die for the sins of all men, precross and postcross.

    John describes Jesus as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. When God created Adam and Eve and told them not to eat of the tree did He plan for them to sin? Did Adam have a choice? If Adam had a choice how could God have planned for Christ to die from the foundation of the world? If Adam did not have a choice, why did God tell him not to eat of the fruit?

    The death of Jesus was a fulfillment of OT prophecy. His future reign over national Israel will further fulfill OT prophecy. The Church is not the subject of any detailed OT prophecy. Salvation of the Gentiles was foretold in the OT The “mystery” of Jew and Gentile in one body was not. Not only was it not envisioned by OT prophets, it was not understood by the Apostles, at least not until Acts 15.

    So did Jesus come to die? Yes.
    Did his death lead to the establishment of the Church? Yes.
    Did his death fulfill some of the OT prophecies concerning Israel? Not really, but His death did provide for their eventual fulfillment. Further, His death was a fulfillment of general OT prophecy not specifically related to national Israel.
    Does the Church fulfill the OT prophecies concerning Israel? No.

    For instance:

    Ge 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
    Ge 48:4 And said unto me, Behold, I will make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, and I will make of thee a multitude of people; and will give this land to thy seed after thee for an everlasting possession.

    This was not an allegorical promise. The specifics of the divine land grant are detailed many times in the OT.

    What about the Messiah sitting on the throne of David? Is that the church?

    Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
    Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
    Isa 16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
    Lu 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

    Jesus is not now on the throne of David. Jesus is not now ruling or reigning in Jerusalem. NO, the promises to Israel have not yet been fulfilled. The Church does not take over the national promises to Israel.
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Jesus came "to do the Father's will".

    And one of the GREAT things about that will included BOB! Me!
     
  10. KenH

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    [​IMG]

    Stopping just long enough to ask another question:

    Did God plan to establish the church all along, or did He switch to Plan B when the Jews refused to accept Jesus as King in the first century.

    Now back to it...

    [​IMG]
     
  11. rjprince

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    KenH,

    The answer to your questions is....

    YES!

    BTW, great emoticon! Is that one of our choices if we look at the full post page?

    Will give a serious response tomorrow.
     
  12. KenH

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    It's an emoticon from the Internet. I look forward to your answer. [​IMG]
     
  13. Daniel David

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    The church never has been a plan B. The fact that the kingdom was literally offered to the jews does not in any way equate to a plan B.

    The only folks who could legitimately hold to the plan B idea would be Open Theists, and they aren't even Christians.
     
  14. KenH

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    Interesting. So if the Jews in the first century had accepted the offer, then Jesus would have ruled physically starting then?
     
  15. Daniel David

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    The Jews weren't going to accept the offer. There was no chance that they would.

    The kingdom prophecies were only half of what Christ had in store for the rest of history.
     
  16. KenH

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    Hypothetically, since you said it was offered to them, what if they had? And, if there was no chance they would accept the offer, was it a sincere offer?
     
  17. rjprince

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    KenH,

    Same thing with Adam. Could he really have lived forever? Could he and Eve have filled the earth with their offspring? How many babies could she have had, before the curse? What if childbearing were not done “in sorrow”? What if her body did not age?

    Here is a thought. God not only knows what is certain to transpire, He knows the potential as well! Matt 11:21-23; Luke 10:13

    Why did Jesus not do the might works in Tyre and Sidon or Sodom? Why would they have repented when the Jews did not?

    Again, did Judas have a choice in his betrayal or not? If God foretold it in the past (Psa 41:9), and Jesus sent him out to do the deed (John 13:27), how could Judas have been fully accountable for his choice, if it was indeed a choice (Mark 14:21; John 6:70).

    The fact that God knew that Chorazin and Bethsaida would not repent does not mean that the gospel of the kingdom was not preached in sincerity (oops that is a hint for my poll!). The fact that God used His knowledge of Judas’ betrayal does not mean that Judas is not responsible for his sin. The fact that God knew the Jews would reject their Messiah and therefore the kingdom and that He factored that into the equation does not mean that Jesus did not preach the “gospel of the kingdom” in FULL sincerity.

    Whenever a student fails a test, it is the teacher’s fault. The teacher could reasonably have anticipated that some may fail the test. By giving the test, the teacher brings about the failure. So, it is the teacher’s fault. If the test were not given, there would have been no failure! ON THE OTHER HAND, every student had the theoretical potential of making 100 on the test. The fact that some may have never made a 100 in their lives, has no bearing at all on the theoretical potential.

    All this thinking is giving me a headache. What about when the other shoe is on the other hand?

    If a frog had wings he would not bump his rump with every jump!
     
  18. Grasshopper

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    I Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.20And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
     
  19. rjprince

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    Grasshopper,

    Sorry, you quoted the NT and did not provide any evidence of Church detail in the OT. Is my brief phrase all that unclear?

    I will grant that there are shadows and hints of the Church in the OT. How can you guys be so intense on your effort to find the Church in the OT when you ignore SO MUCH ON THE LITERAL KINGDOM IN THE OT?!?!?!?!!!!
     
  20. rjprince

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    GH,

    Sorry, also meant to note that "whom heaven must recieve until the times of the restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his prophets since the world began" sure sounds like a literal kingdgom to me!
     

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