Did Jesus Come...

Sorry, but I let the NT writers interpret the OT for me in this case Peter and Paul. If you chose to interpret in your way fine but the choice on whom to believe between you and Paul is an easy one for me.

Does Is.65 and 66 describe this literal Kingdom? Is the New Heaven and New Earth found in those texts the same as in Rev 21?

 

Grasshopper,

Fine with me, I do not even see “Church” in the passage you cited from the NT. I do see “grace” but I do not see evidence that Paul suggested that the OT saints understood the idea. I DO SEE WHERE PAUL SAYS THAT THEY DID NOT UNDERSTAND THE CHURCH IDEA!!! You going to take Paul’s word on that?!

 

I'm not making the claim that OT prophets understood their prophecies.

Yes, as I stated the OT Prophets did not understand many of their prophecies concerning this time. That is why you must let Paul and the other NT writers interpret it for you.

Daniel didn't even understand his own prophecy:

Dan 8: 27And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

Does Is.65 and 66 describe this literal Kingdom? Is the New Heaven and New Earth found in those texts the same as in Rev 21?

 

Yep, but is important to understand that their interpretation must not reverse or annul the clear words of the OT text. That is what many who hold an amil position do with some NT passages. Hence, my objection.

Isa 65 and 66 seem to blend the literal kingdom and the eternal state. Not all that surprising though. Look at Isa 61:1-2. He blended the first and second comings of the Messiah (see Luke 4:17-21...

The NT clarifies somewhat, but does not reverse the clear meaning of Isa 61.

 

Yet you do just that when you say this:

Isa 65 and 66 seem to blend the literal kingdom and the eternal state.

It seems to blend them because you insist on a physical New heaven and New Earth. The events of Is 65 and 66 do not represent the eternal state. Are the New Heavens and New Earth of Is 65 and 66 the same as Rev 21?

Where is the second coming mentioned in Luke 4:17-21? Only verse 61:1 is fuflfilled.

Clarifies somewhat? Did you read verse 21 of Luke 4?

 

I do not reverse or annul other clear statements of Scripture by my suggestion that Isa seems to blend the millennium and the eternal state.

In Isa 61, the prophet blends together the first and second comings of the Lord Jesus. That was my point. Luke 4 clearly shows that the whole of 61:2 is not fulfilled in the first coming. Did I read verse 21? That is the classic passage I always use to demonstrate split reference, dual reference, or partial fulfillment! Did I read it, indeed.

Verse 21 is why Jesus stopped in the MIDDLE of the verse. Part was fulfilled, part was not. Had He read all of Isa 61:2 He could not have said what is recorded in verse 21!

 

The church isn't just salvation of the gentiles. That is what the O.T. prophets looked forward to.

The church was a mystery not previously known. At least, that was Paul's take on the church. The church is Jew and Gentile into one new body. The O.T. is silent on such a concept.

 

DD

The OT prophets looked forward to a literal kingdom. They also looked forward to a deliverer. They did not look forward to a mystery, how could they have it the OT was silent on the subject?

Yet, from Luke 21 and Rom 11 we see that the times of the Gentiles will end and God will again deal with Israel (Luke 21:20,24,28; Rom 11:25-28). How can you reconcile these passages with your position re Israel?

 

There are over 60 Old Testament prophesies that are fulfilled in Jesus! As we know the Old Testament is written by Jews for Jews. Therefore, there are over 60 prophesies written for the Jews that have been fulfilled in Jesus.

 

Yes, indeed. The prophecies were fulfilled in a contextual literal grammatical historical manner! That is a clear indication that we can expect the remaining unfilled prophecies to be similarly fulfilled literally. I am looking forward to Jesus literally reigning on David’s throne in Jerusalem just as the angel promised Mary!

 

Wes,

Would add that although the OT was written by Jews to Jews, it is also FOR us, as an example and to teach us about the character of God, but we are certainly not bound by the OT law.