Did Jesus Desire Evil In Gethsemane?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by jasonlevene, Jan 22, 2006.

  1. jasonlevene

    jasonlevene
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    Hello, I've been working on this formula of the Gethsemane account that I believe proves that Jesus desired evil and I'd like to know what you think of it:

    1. It was God the Father's will that Jesus drink of the cup. (Matt. 26:42)

    2. Jesus did not want to drink of the cup. --'O my father, if it is possible, let his cup pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will but as you will.' (Matthew 26:39)

    3. Jesus thus did not want to fulfill the Father's will (drink of the Father's cup) and in this way he desired evil. He wanted the Father's will nullified.

    4. Jesus rejected his 'evil' desire to not drink of the Father's cup (nullify the Father's will) by concluding that: --'O my father, if this cup can not pass away from me unless I drink it, thy will be done.' (Matthew 26:42)
     
  2. BobRyan

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    I do not think Jesus desired evil. It was the plan of the Son as much as of the Father that Christ die for our sins. But this was to be a free will act of sacrifice - not under compulsion not a forced execution.

    In a free will system it is not "sin" to fail to sacrifice yourself to unspeakable torture on behalf of others. Such a free will act is "free will" for the very reason that it WOULD be ok to choose life instead! Otherwise it is merely forced execution.

    Christ could easily say "Mankind is hopeless, filled with sin, trying to slay the one who has come to save them and EVEN the disciples will run from me and deny me! Let mankind suffer his own fate - I return to the Father and the worship of the Angels".

    Had He done that - it would be no sin to His account!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. partialrapture

    partialrapture
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    no...

    1Peter 2:22 (Jesus)Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
     
  4. hillclimber

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    I like this post, thanks Bob. It would have been sinful to have desired evil, and he committed no sin.
     
  5. jasonlevene

    jasonlevene
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    Wait a second...if it was God the Father's will that Jesus go to the cross and Jesus walked away from the cross, then how were the Scriptures to be fulfilled? (Matt. 26:54)
     
  6. jasonlevene

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    According to James 1:14-15, it is not the evil lust that renders one a sinner, but gratifying the evil lust. In other words, if it was sinful to desire evil, then Jesus was a sinner because in desiring to not go to the cross, Jesus desired against the Father's will and that is evil.
     
  7. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist
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    Since the Word of God affirms that Jesus never sinned, neither was guile found in His mouth, when Christ was agonizing in the garden of Gethsemane that evening, His statement, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt], shows us He was willing to follow the Father's will all the way. The little word 'if' indicates that Jesus was not desiring evil at all, but that God's will be done whichever way God would have it to go.
     
  8. standingfirminChrist

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    Matthew 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    Desiring something that is against God's will for you is sin according to Matthew 5:28.

    James 1:14, 15 do not mean it is not sin until one actually performs that which is in the heart.

    Jeremiah 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
     
  9. Don

    Don
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    Jason,
    Doesn't matter. Jesus didn't walk away from the cross, and therefore the Scriptures were fulfilled. Discussing how they would have been fulfilled otherwise is pointless and fruitless.

    If I follow your reference to James 1:14-15--it is not the evil lust that renders one a sinner--and I agree with you that Jesus desired not to drink of the cup (which I don't), then Jesus still was not guilty of sin because of the same verses you used; i.e., James 1:14-15--it is the gratifying of the evil lust that renders one a sinner; Jesus did not gratify the desire to "walk away," thus Jesus was not a sinner.

    Question for you: What's your motivation for this line of reasoning?
     
  10. jasonlevene

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    I do agree that the word 'if' indicates that Jesus did not actually expect God the Father to take the cup away from him but you can not deny that it was what Jesus wanted. His words 'not my will but yours be done' confirm that his will was for the cup/cross to have been taken away from him.

    If you look upon a woman lustfully, you have gratified the evil desire to look upon a woman lustfully. You've rejected the desire to remain obedient to God and not look upon a woman lustfully. Once you give your mental or physical assent to an evil desire, you've gratified it and thus have sinned. Jesus never gratified his will/evil desire to escape the cross. That's the difference.

    And again, if desiring what is against God's will is sin, how do you explain Jesus desiring against God's will in not wanting to go to the cross?

    Thanks for the insight

    Jason
     
  11. jasonlevene

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    But Don, you said this:

    Jesus said that the Scriptures testified of him (John 5:39) and the Scriptures required him to die on the cross (Matt. 26:42). Now if Jesus had walked away from the cross and had rejected the Father's will, then how could we ever believe any word of YHWH ever again if the prophecy of all prophecies -Jesus dying on the cross- did not come to pass?


    I agree with you...Jesus never sinned by never gratifying his evil lust. But I ask you, if you believe Jesus didn't want to drink of the cup, how do you interpret his words 'take this cup away from me...nevertheless not as I will but as you will'?

    As for my motivation for this line of reasoning...I'm just testing out a new theory.

    And I thank you for the insight Don

    Jason
     
  12. Don

    Don
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    </font>[/QUOTE]Actually no, I didn't. I think that was Bob Ryan. So I still stand with my "doesn't matter, because He did it" comment.

    You noted that it was God's will by using 26:42; and then quoted Matthew 26:39. Take a look at 39, 42, and 44. Take a look at the wording of 42: "if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

    The wording the second time around is different. The first time sounded questionable: "if it be possible, let this cup pass from me," followed by "nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt."

    The subsequent phrasing of His prayer the next 2 times is, 'if it's my responsibility, if I'm the only one that can do it, thy will be done.' (please pardon the paraphrasing)

    He knew what would happen, the scourging and torture and torment that He was about to face. I don't think there's any evil in asking, "If it be possible, let this cup pass from me" in the face of the atrocities about to be visited upon Him. If anything, it shows how much God made Himself human in order to be the sacrifice for us.

    Further, He knew the scriptures better than all; how could He have an "evil desire" in His heart, knowing that God works all things for good?

    I think the subsequent phrasing of v. 42, followed by reiteration in v. 44, shows His willingness to be obedient and carry out the plan, rather than a desire to go against God's will.

    And finally, I have to add, the Scriptures show us that He was without sin, without evil. If He did have an evil desire, then Scripture has contradicted itself, and is therefore questionable in all points. Jesus was sinless, and therefore had no evil.
     
  13. jasonlevene

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    Oh well we all make mistakes...

    But my question still stands, how could we ever believe the Word of YHWH if the prophecy of all prophecies -Jesus dying on the cross- did not come to pass?

    I think you're misunderstanding Jesus' prayers in Gethsemane. When he asked to have the cup taken away from him, he was asking God the Father to nullify his will and save him from the cross. Now I do not believe he expected God the Father to actually take the cup away from him (as is confirmed by John 12:27) but his words do confirm that he did not want to drink of the cup. Matthew 26:42 was a rejection of the desire behind the request in Matthew 26:39. He was declaring that there was no other way but for him to drink of the cup.

    As for whether that's sin or not...James 1:14-15 confirms that the evil lust by itself does not render one a sinner...gratifying the evil lust does that.

    Jesus thus did have an evil desire but did not gratify it. And let us not forget...Jesus veiled his divine attributes to come in our flesh which by nature is inherently evil. Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane confirms that there can never be harmony between our flesh and the will of God. If Jesus did not desire evil, then you can not say he didn't want to go to the cross because that means he desired against the Father's will and that is evil. It's got to be one or the other.

    Jason
     

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