1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Did Jesus Dishonor His Earthly Parents?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by ktn4eg, Jan 18, 2012.

  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes agreed this is a wicked posting.Something is very wrong here.
     
  2. beameup

    beameup Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    2
    Catholics believe in the "Holy Family", I don't.

    He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows,
    and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him;
    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    - Isa 53:3

    I find you very pharisaical, a very angry person.
    Perhaps it would be good if you read the "fruits of the Holy Spirit".
    However, I am quite used to and acquainted in Carnal Christians who are not directed by the Holy Spirit.

    His mother may have thought more of him than anyone else,
    however it was well rumored that he was "born of fornication"
    and I'm sure that most probably falsely believed that.
    Any mother that truly knew and understood what he was,
    would have kept very close watch on him. She didn't, therefore
    she didn't.
    His Heavenly Father kept "close watch" on him.

    Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking,
    be put away from you, with all malice:
    - Eph 4:31
     
    #22 beameup, Jan 19, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  3. Mark_13

    Mark_13 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    The more I think of it, its clear that Jesus, once finding himself within the confines of the temple, the designated house of God, just knew intuitively he belonged there, along with God the Father in the Holy of Holies evidently. He indicates surprise that his parents did not recognize the same thing - but should they have? At any rate once its clear that his parents want him to go back to Nazareth, he dutifully obeys, as is remarked on in the last verse of the passage. So the passage itself is portraying how he did honor his parents, by returning to Nazareth. What is noteworthy is that he wasn't omniscient, assuming that his parents knew he would remain there when they didn't. So simultaneously a kind of child-like naivete, along with an astonishing statement of his divinity. In a sense, it all seems a little convenient, contrived as a narrative, not saying I don't believe it.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    beameup

    Some weeks back you were borderline close, as you are now, to questioning my Salvation. Your post on which I commented was despicable and false. It denies a mothers love and the brevity of Scripture dealing with that love, part of which Scarlett O reminded you.

    As for your association with carnal Christians that is your choice and your problem.
     
  5. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some have a wrong idea about the relationship Jesus had with his parents and with the community.

    Look at the Scriptures!!!!
    (after they left the temple)
    And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart. And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.


    Those of you who want to consider him rejected and sorrow filled even by his parents stand in contrast to what this scripture teaches.
     
  6. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Though it's a certainty that the group with which Mary and Joseph was travelling was huge, you're right that the oversight was on the part of Mary and Joseph. 12 years with Jesus, a model child and in every way trustworthy, responsible, and wise beyond His years; and being assured of God's protection of His own Son, I doubt Mary and Joseph gave Jesus much thought—not in the way one would of a natural child. Sloth certainly takes occassion with assurance.

    When Mary and Joseph realized their oversight, just like natural parents they feared the worst. They had forgotten with Whom they were dealing, and Christ's answer was a gentle rebuke of their doubt and fear. It was not a protest of their coming to a take Him with them.
     
  7. beameup

    beameup Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2011
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    2
    It's pretty clear where you are "coming from".

    It is impossible for me NOT to associate with
    Carnal Ego-directed Christians as they are
    the vast majority in the U.S. By "associate",
    I have little in common with them as
    they are driven by ego/self and have no
    "fruit". They are most miserable IMO,
    and are full of anger, malice, bitterness.

    I don't "question their salvation".
    They are CARNAL Self-directed Ego-directed Christians,
    but Christians nonetheless.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking,
    be put away from you, with all malice:
    - Eph 4:31

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness,
    faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
    - Gal 5:22-23

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,
    but as unto carnal, even as unto babies in Christ.
    - 1 Cor 3:1
     
    #27 beameup, Jan 20, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 20, 2012
  8. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    19,446
    Likes Received:
    2,875
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Excellent post.
     
  9. jaigner

    jaigner Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,274
    Likes Received:
    0
    What the heck?!? The Bible obviously doesn't give the entire account of Jesus' life. There is nothing theologically to be drawn from this.
     
  10. Mark_13

    Mark_13 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    There was not an issue with Jesus' reply to Mary when she found him. That wasn't the dishonor - rather it was him ostensibly subjecting his parents to needless worry when even a normal child would presumably know they would be worried. So, if he knew his parents expected him to return to Nazareth, and then stayed behind for days anyway, would not even an ordinary 12 year old known his parents would be worried.

    Imagine a 12 year old on a trip to town from the farm with his family to visit the circus (say in the early 1900's or something). And this 12 year old is so enthralled with it all, he decides to stay behind and join the circus. So his parents leave and he stays behind for days, hanging around the lions cage, offering to do chores etc. Would that be a sin for that 12 year old to do that?

    I'm not saying there's a direct comparison here, but that's what's at issue.

    In the case of Jesus, he was undoubtedly being detained by other authority figures there in the temple, who were peppering him with questions. But the only way I see Jesus not dishonoring his parents, is if he truly was not aware that they expected him to return with them. But we know he was not continually omniscient, even as an adult. And Jesus in fact expresses incredulity to Mary, when she indicates she *had* expected him to return to Nazareth. So that's the explanation as I see it - he didn't know. (And as I said previously, the incident indicates he thought of himself as God even at that age, as he says the God of the temple was his father. And later in life the Jewish rulers tried to stone him when he said that.)
     
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,788
    Likes Received:
    698
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John Calvin notes that Jesus repelled Mary quite rashly at the wedding at Cana (John 2:4 "Woman, what have I to do with thee?"):

    Calvin also notes that Jesus disparaged His relationship with Mary when told she was waiting to see Him (Matt. 12:48 "Who is my mother?"):

     
  12. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    repeat post
     
  13. Mark_13

    Mark_13 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm thinking that Jesus must have known that at the very least, he was dedicated to God by his parents, in a very special way. And I'm sure he knew the story of Samuel, the first and greatest Judge of Israel, and that Samuel as well was born through miracle and had been dedicated to God as a child by his mother. And Samuel as well was turned over to the temple and the temple priest in dedication. So undoubtedly Jesus thought his parents intended to do the same (though they didn't).
     
  14. glfredrick

    glfredrick New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    Messages:
    4,996
    Likes Received:
    2
    No... Next! :laugh:
     
  15. Mark_13

    Mark_13 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2012
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jerome #31 - really good reply, specifically to jaigner at #29. There should be a 'like' button activated for posts in this forum
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Messages:
    22,678
    Likes Received:
    64
    beameup,

    Read the following. You might learn something. Elijah did!

    1 Kings 19:9-18
    9. And he came thither unto a cave, and lodged there; and, behold, the word of the LORD came to him, and he said unto him, What doest thou here, Elijah?
    10. And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
    11. And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:
    12. And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
    13. And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him, and said, What doest thou here, Elijah?
    14. And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
    15. And the LORD said unto him, Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
    16. And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.
    17. And it shall come to pass, that him that escapeth the sword of Hazael shall Jehu slay: and him that escapeth from the sword of Jehu shall Elisha slay.
    18. Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.
     
  17. mandym

    mandym New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,991
    Likes Received:
    0
    Can Jesus ever be charged with disobeying scripture or sinning? Why ask questions that have obvious answers?
     
  18. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,384
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jerome, I know it's John Calvin you are quoting, but he is off track here and I'm saying that as kindly as I can.

    One doesn't have to portray Jesus as man who browbeats his mother and puts her in her place to show that the Catholic view of Mary is wrong. Mary is not and was not divine - we all know that.

    But the polar opposite - the notion of her being a bad mother, not dedicating Jesus to the Temple, Jesus having to rebuke her rashly and put her in her place - to warn future generations not to venerate her - that's not true either.

    When Jesus said "Who is my mother?", He also said "Who are my brothers?" Mary and her other sons were ALL looking for Jesus. He didn't say that to dismiss her and strip her of this supposed bossiness as Calvin implies, whe he said that "she was acting improper and too eagerly in trying to interrupt Him."

    She wasn't trying to interrupt Him. Nor were his brothers. They were looking for Him. Possibly trying to save Him.

    I don't see Jesus as a man who "rashly rebukes" his mother or who "tries to diparage the flesh and blood relationship" He had with her.

    Jesus was a man who, while dying on the cross, and suffering untold spiritual and physical agonies - a man whom Isaiah prophecies as not even looking HUMAN in his abused state - who BECAME sin for the whole world - and yet even in that horrible time, His concern was "who is going to take care of my mother?"

    This is not a man who rebuked his mother nor rashly tried to sever the ties of flesh and blood between He and her.

    I think Calvin is wrong here.
     
  19. Scarlett O.

    Scarlett O. Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2002
    Messages:
    11,384
    Likes Received:
    944
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Just a couple of things, brother. First, welcome to the board. I hope you stay awhile. Please don't take what I have to say as anything but friendly chatter.

    Samuel was not the first judge. He was the last. His birth was only miraculous in that God heard the prayers of Hannah, his mother. His birth really can't be compared to Christ's birth.

    Yes, Samuel was dedicated to God. Hannah made a vow that if God would give her a son, that she would give him back. But he wasn't given to the Temple. There was no Temple when Samuel was born. He was given to the priests at Shiloh.

    The Temple was not built for along time to come. Samuel has to grow up, serve as a prophet under Saul, then under David. David had to die and Solomon became king then Solomon built the Temple. I don't think Samuel ever saw the Temple as he died and Nathan was prophet during the latter part of David's reign.

    And why would Jesus expect to become a mere Temple priest or be dedicated to serve there?

    Jesus didn't come for that. His Priesthood was vastly different.

    And Jesus was Prophet and Priest and King and Lamb and Sacrifice. He was and is everything.

    To put him in a man-made Temple and have him serve there would have limited Him severely. It isn't what He came for.

    Hope to chat with you more! :flower:
     
  20. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2006
    Messages:
    13,103
    Likes Received:
    4
    Excellent post Scarlett. It shows that you are a teacher. :thumbs:
     
Loading...